shippingsteel Posted 7 March , 2011 Share Posted 7 March , 2011 Came across this nice old German bayonet recently and you don't see these around that often, so thought I'd post up some pics. I find these do have a very appealing style to them, so subsequently felt compelled to add this one to the pile - I thought it was reasonably priced for what it was, these are a little scarce. Its not in the greatest of condition but has that very honest "well-used but still looks good for its age" feel about it. This one has seen 135 years and with a light clean should come up OK. This model was the very first of the German 'Imperial era' bayonets, and was originally issued with the Infanterie-Gewehr M1871 rifle featuring the single shot Mauser action. This rifle was well and truly obsolete by the time of the GW, however the bayonets continued in service with second-line and Landwehr troops, where they were fitted to the Gewehr M1888. They may also have been issued to some front-line regiments very early on in the war but I am not certain of this. If anyone has any evidence to add on this it would be much appreciated? HERE is a linked postcard showing the Seitengewehr 71 bayonet attached to the Gewehr 88 rifle, and being used by a soldier from a Landwehr unit. (Note the attachment on side of rifle.) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmad Posted 7 March , 2011 Share Posted 7 March , 2011 Hi S>S nice bayonet, I also have one that I got at a very good price, (1 hour teaching a group how to roll a kayak) after our session i was given this by one of the class as a thank you. I have always wondered why the non slip grip was only added to one side of the handle? My example has the scabard but it is quiet shrunk and leaves the blade protruding about 20 mm from the top. incidently what woeld a good price be? regards ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patje70 Posted 7 March , 2011 Share Posted 7 March , 2011 Hello Shippingsteel Nice find and are there markings on it ? Mine is made by Erfurt and has the numbers 79R.... on it. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 7 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 March , 2011 Thanks guys, they are a nice looking bayonet. This one was a Prussian issue in 1876, but sadly there are no regimental markings stamped on it. It is however made by Clemen & Jung another Solingen based cutler, which is fairly unusual as they are probably better known for their prolific sword production. Yes it is interesting why they only had the grooved grip on the one side. I believe it had a lot to do with external looks and the inherent softness of the brass material used. I think the grooved side was showing on the outside when hung in the frog on the belt, while the smooth side was facing inwards where any rubbing would have normally occurred. As for a "good" price, as usual this is heavily dependent on condition, and of course if you are the buyer or the seller of the particular article in question.! I've seen ones in reasonable condition range anywhere from $150US right through to $750US. For an indicator of price there is one listed at the moment on HERE. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 8 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 8 March , 2011 Mine is made by Erfurt and has the numbers 79R.... on it. Pat Pat, this should be the regimental marking for the (3.Hannoversches) Infanterie-Regt. von Voigts-Rhetz Nr.79, who I believe were part of the X Armee Korps in 1914. Also a few other pieces of interesting trivia regarding these brass handled bayonets, which while making them look impressive also partially led to their ultimate downfall.! When this model was first removed from service it began to be replaced in the regular army units by the much shorter and incredibly frugal looking Sg71/84 knife bayonet. It seems that the only units allowed to retain these M1871 bayonets at the time were the Garde Regiments, who obviously thought the shiny brass look was in keeping with their elite status.! Then later during the Great War when Germany was faced with severe shortages of important metals for the war effort, these bayonets began to be recycled in order to reclaim the brass. So while they may have looked very nice fitted with the brass handles, this also eventually became one of the main reasons that they are found to be in such particularly short supply today. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
militariaone Posted 8 March , 2011 Share Posted 8 March , 2011 Greetings S>S, I enjoyed your share. Thought I'd get off my duff and do same. Thank you for your postings. Regards, Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 9 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 9 March , 2011 Thanks Lance, and well done for adding your selection for display, its always good to see the different variations that were made. I especially like the OVS / Transvaal version which is probably one of my favourite bayonets. These were reportedly originally made for the Boers but ended up never being delivered. I believe many eventually ended up seeing service with the Turkish army as it had the matching MRD. Yes, and that reminds me that I also particularly like the long blade Turkish M1890 bayonet. Probably got something to do with that beautifully curved quillon, which just happens to be identical on both those bayonets. It was simply reversed to create the unique design of the Boer bayonet. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServiceRumDiluted Posted 26 September , 2013 Share Posted 26 September , 2013 I have just acquired a saw back one of these in reasonable 'barn find'condition, no scabbard, with battle damage to the pommel, never seen one before, nevermind with the sawback. Did I get something interesting? Will try to get photos up if anyone is interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 26 September , 2013 Share Posted 26 September , 2013 Yes you certainly did. The sawback versions of this bayonet are scarce and rarely come up for sale (and when they do they generally fetch a sizeable sum). These bayonets would probably not have seen much/any front line action during WW1, but there is always an exception to the rule (or possibly the damage could predate the war). Id love to see some photos. Does the bayonet have any regimental markings? Thanks, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServiceRumDiluted Posted 26 September , 2013 Share Posted 26 September , 2013 Ooh good, I had a hunch that it was worth the modest sum. It was at the local flea market and was probably assumed to be some fireplace decor. Unfortunately I have no provenance for it but closer inspection shows it is possibly a dug relic though it is in excellent relic condition (the blade is pretty bright, if well scratched. I can make out the ERFURT and crown on the ricasso but the other side is a smidge rusty with any markings lost. The handle is the brass, smooth on one side, gripped on the other with what looks like a shell fragment impact right on the pommel, slightly distorting the lug channel. This may be a relic from the Franco/Prussian war? I will try and get photos up in the next few days but this may take a bit if effort as I always need to resize them for this site and am currently without my laptop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 27 September , 2013 Share Posted 27 September , 2013 It sounds like a very good find indeed. My understanding is that German reservists/ landwehr used these bayonets during WW1, but if nothing else they are a fine looking (and very well made) bayonet which epitomise the glamorous pre-WW1 era. The regimental markings would normally be on the guard, but it may be that there were none or that the markings have been detroyed by the rust. Looking forward to the photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServiceRumDiluted Posted 30 September , 2013 Share Posted 30 September , 2013 Et voila, some pics. (hopefully) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServiceRumDiluted Posted 30 September , 2013 Share Posted 30 September , 2013 and the other side Not sure how/where/when this occurred; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 4 October , 2013 Share Posted 4 October , 2013 Nice bayonet SRD, its definitely seen better days condition-wise but still very collectible. Thanks for putting up the photos. It would be great to know how the hilt was damaged in that way, it would take a bit to rip through brass like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServiceRumDiluted Posted 4 October , 2013 Share Posted 4 October , 2013 Thanks, I actually prefer items with the 'patina of history' on them to mint items. Anyone with a big enough chequebook can obtain mint examples of anything (I'm not be being sniffy here 'cos if my chequebook was big enough I'd have lots of mint stuff!) But to serendipitously find a 'been there' item regardless of condition is much more evocative. I have an 05 Butchers Blade bayonet in OK condition that a collector would possibly pass over, but I know the name and number of the private who bought it back from hill 60 in April 1915 after being gassed and that gives it pride of place regardless of condition. I also have a scabbard for same (not at all connected, this is a relic) with a full 13 bullet holes in it, no other item I have ever seen better encapsulates the horror of machine gun fire better than that rusty bit of scrap metal. Anyway thanks for your interest, I'm having a good streak, yesterday I picked up a lebel bayonet which had been cut down and modified to make a stiletto trench knife, complete with scabbard for not much more than the price of a reasonable round of drinks! I'm definitely succumbing to bayonet accumlationitus. SRD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 5 October , 2013 Share Posted 5 October , 2013 Anyone with a big enough chequebook can obtain mint examples of anything Hmm, that is a VERY bold statement! Not wanting to derail the topic but I think I could name quite a few items that don't fit into that category. Assuming of course that you aren't talking about paying Bill Gates money, in which pretty much anything, and indeed anyone, is for sale.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 February , 2014 Share Posted 28 February , 2014 Thanks, I actually prefer items with the 'patina of history' on them to mint items... ... yesterday I picked up a lebel bayonet which had been cut down and modified to make a stiletto trench knife, complete with scabbard for not much more than the price of a reasonable round of drinks! Hi SRD, I tend to agree with your first statement - and not only because that's the general condition of what is on offer over here! Now, that Lebel... Would you provide a photograph and/or details? The thing being that the Germans shortened a number of those that they captured. Also, IIRC (at work right now, references at home!), the French did likewise in the inter-war period, while some believe - I can't recall if it has been verified or not - that French cycle troops had shortened Lebels'. So, at least a length measurement will be of interest to see exactly what you have! Trajan PS Sorry to hi-jack your thread, as it were, SS, but I didn't want to get another thread started as people complain... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 February , 2014 Share Posted 28 February , 2014 And now a real reply to the thread. 1) M/71's were still being made as late as 1900 = an example is known with an Unteroffizier Schule Marienburg spine marking W/00, but most end at 1880, with a few from 1892, 1893, 1894. SS, you say "This one was a Prussian issue in 1876", so if you please it would be nice to have a photograph of that for the records! 2) CLEMEN & JUNG certainly made cadet versions of the M 71, lighter in weight than the standard type, and with a narrower 25.8 blade width as opposed to the regular 27.00-28.00, but I don't know of any regular issues, which yours would be with a Prussian W/76 stamp. But yours looks to be a narrow blade, so? 3) Were they used in WWI? Well, there is an example crossguard marked 73.R.P.10.201, allegedly captured at 'Poitiers Ridge' in 1916: my source doesn't indicate if the 'R' is italicised or not, but this should be 73 Reserve Pionier Bataillion, 10 Company, weapon 201. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 28 February , 2014 Share Posted 28 February , 2014 Here is another rescue example to bring tears to your eyes chaps but at least I can almost make out the markings on the crossguard on this 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 February , 2014 Share Posted 28 February , 2014 That's an 'ouch', but I would be happy to find one! OK, so what you got... W/73... That could well be a W.R.KIRSCHBAUM as they made them then and from what little I know they were the main makers in 1873 77.R.XX.XX, seems ok for what SS would call 'period', so perhaps (not really my field!) 77/2nd Hannoversche Regiment, our boys until Queen Vic ascended the throne... Oh, and yes, there IS brass underneath that grime / paint - but be careful with the cleaning! Trajan PS: as I understand it, but always ready to be corrected, after 1871 the individual German states kept their own local numbers for their units but then added a number to fit in with the Prussian army organisation. So, the 77th Imperial German Regiment is the same as the 2nd Hannoverian Regiment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServiceRumDiluted Posted 28 February , 2014 Share Posted 28 February , 2014 Trajan, thanks for your interest, I've taken some pics but will start a new thread rather than piggyback the M1871 thread further! Should be next few days. SRD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 February , 2014 Share Posted 28 February , 2014 Trajan, thanks for your interest, I've taken some pics but will start a new thread rather than piggyback the M1871 thread further! Should be next few days. SRD Too true! My fault for not leapfrogging your post into a new thread! There is a fair bit of data available on these shortened Lebels, so I look forward to what you have! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 28 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 28 February , 2014 Here is the SG1871 from that original post as it sits today (now safely tucked away in one of my drawers). It cleaned up really well and is still one of my favourite bayonets. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 28 February , 2014 Author Share Posted 28 February , 2014 Another photo linked HERE of this type of bayonet in use with the Landwehr. (Actually I think that could be a wartime photo with the 'pickel' cover ... but not my area.!) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 March , 2014 Share Posted 1 March , 2014 That has cleaned up nicely! Any chance of a photograph of the makers mark? And is it the 'Cadet' version? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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