RND badge?

[wainfleet]

I have assumed that this is Navy because of its tombstone shape, plus I've been informed by a fairly reliable person that it is for a Navy PTI 2nd class. So I'm further assuming, since as far as I know the Navy have never worn khaki, that it is probably WW1, Royal Naval Division. It would be interesting to have this confirmed or refuted by someone who knows more about these things than I do (Grumpy perhaps?)

Regards,

W.

[aglastonbury]

W, It as Royal Navy Petty Officer PTI badge as is still used today. A Chief Petty Office until the 50s or 60s had a star in addition to the crown. But every ship would have had a PTI on board so I see no reason why an RND wouldn't have one.

Alex

[ARABIS]

This is from Badges and Insignia of the British Armed Forces, by W.E. May.

CROSSED CLUBS with crown above.

Gymnastic Instructor 1890-1904.

Gymnastic Instructor, 3rd class 1904-1909.

Physical and Recreational Training Instructor, 2nd class 1932-1948.

Physical Trainer, chief petty officer 1948-1951.

Physical Trainer, chief petty officer with 2nd class qualification 1951-

You will notice that the crown above badge only is not used during the Great War period.

There were only two badges worn by PTIs 1914-1918.

CROSSED CLUBS with crown and star above, star below - Physical Training Instructor, 1st class 1909-1921.

CROSSED CLUBS with crown and star above - Physical Training Instructor, 2nd class 1909-1921.

Is it RND? I don't know, but if they kept to the RN badge regulations right through then it seems not. If they changed to army trade badges then wouldn't the crossed swords be worn?

During WWII, RN Combined Operations wore khaki battledress but as far as I know wore the normal red embroidered on blue badges with it.

Quarter-Master Sergeant Instructors of Physical Training in the Royal Marines used the Crossed Clubs with crown above during WWI, & wore khaki but I can only find the full dress badges in my books. By WWII the crown had a wreath around it [badges and Insignia of World War II, Air Force-Naval-Marine, by Guido Rosignoli].

David.

[FROGSMILE]

This is from Badges and Insignia of the British Armed Forces, by W.E. May.

CROSSED CLUBS with crown above.

Gymnastic Instructor 1890-1904.

Gymnastic Instructor, 3rd class 1904-1909.

Physical and Recreational Training Instructor, 2nd class 1932-1948.

Physical Trainer, chief petty officer 1948-1951.

Physical Trainer, chief petty officer with 2nd class qualification 1951-

You will notice that the crown above badge only is not used during the Great War period.

There were only two badges worn by PTIs 1914-1918.

CROSSED CLUBS with crown and star above, star below - Physical Training Instructor, 1st class 1909-1921.

CROSSED CLUBS with crown and star above - Physical Training Instructor, 2nd class 1909-1921.

Is it RND? I don't know, but if they kept to the RN badge regulations right through then it seems not. If they changed to army trade badges then wouldn't the crossed swords be worn?

During WWII, RN Combined Operations wore khaki battledress but as far as I know wore the normal red embroidered on blue badges with it.

Quarter-Master Sergeant Instructors of Physical Training in the Royal Marines used the Crossed Clubs with crown above during WWI, & wore khaki but I can only find the full dress badges in my books. By WWII the crown had a wreath around it [badges and Insignia of World War II, Air Force-Naval-Marine, by Guido Rosignoli].

David.

Well researched David and very interesting. From what you have said it seems to be a badge worn by the RM and, as they formed a part of the RND, I suppose it could still have a provenance of WW1.

[ARABIS]

Thanks FROGSMILE,

Yes it could be a WW1 badge. There is a very good two part article on the uniforms of the RND in the June & July 1985 editions of Military Modelling Magazine by W.Y. Carman and R.J. Marrion with photos from the authors' collections. This sentence caught my eye, "Naval rank badges appear in both red worsted on khaki AND THE LIGHT BUFF WORSTED ON KHAKI, but it is not unknown, or indeed very unusual, to see the gold bullion on blue dress badges being worn on the khaki uniform". So light buff on khaki badges were worn, but whether this applied to non-substantive badges they don't say & the lack of stars on the badge in the photograph makes me unsure about it being RND.

Here is an illustration of the full dress RM badge from Rank at a Glance & Badges and Their Meaning, c. 1916.

David.

[ARABIS]

From the same book, the two RN PTI badges worn during WW1.

David.

[wainfleet]

Excellent information, many thanks to you all!

W.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks FROGSMILE,

Yes it could be a WW1 badge. There is a very good two part article on the uniforms of the RND in the June & July 1985 editions of Military Modelling Magazine by W.Y. Carman and R.J. Marrion with photos from the authors' collections. This sentence caught my eye, "Naval rank badges appear in both red worsted on khaki AND THE LIGHT BUFF WORSTED ON KHAKI, but it is not unknown, or indeed very unusual, to see the gold bullion on blue dress badges being worn on the khaki uniform". So light buff on khaki badges were worn, but whether this applied to non-substantive badges they don't say & the lack of stars on the badge in the photograph makes me unsure about it being RND.

Here is an illustration of the full dress RM badge from Rank at a Glance & Badges and Their Meaning, c. 1916.

David.

From what you have said the badges with stars are RN badges worn by sailors, whereas the badges without stars were worn only by Royal Marines. As both sailors and Royal Marines made up the RND it does not seem incompatible to me that both styles were worn side-by-side in the RND, by their respective men. For matters of dress they were entirely different bodies.

[ARABIS]

From what you have said the badges with stars are RN badges worn by sailors, whereas the badges without stars were worn only by Royal Marines. As both sailors and Royal Marines made up the RND it does not seem incompatible to me that both styles were worn side-by-side, by their respective men. For matters of dress they were entirely different bodies.

Yes, I should have been clearer about that. By RND I meant sailors in the RND, but of course there were Royal Marines in the RND as well.

David.

[Staffsyeoman]

In all my time I've never seen a badge like that - quite a find. To me, the pattern and manufacture (if not the colour) shout 'Royal Navy', so my instinct would be to agree with the Royal Naval Division.

A case for Grumpy, methinks.