family hand me down

[ASA1]

The 10th Queens war diaries (up to the end of 1918) are available for free here: http://qrrarchive.we....net/menu3.aspx .

The Regimental museum at Clandon may be interested in his tunic: http://www.queensroy...g.uk/index.html

I've checked the Surrey Recruitment Register and there doesn't appear to be a relevant entry for him.

Regards,

ASA1

[Banjoman]

Here are some pictures of the tunic -low res to send, I'm afraid. There are no labels, marks or indeed any lining at all inside the jacket. Was this normal? All buttons and lanyard are in place. You can see belt hooks and collar hooks. There are a few tiny moth holes and some button holes look a bit frayed. No apparent holes, patches or repairs to tell any stories. More coming on a separate post.

[Banjoman]

More pictures. can anyone tell me what the different stripes signify? I believe one may be a wounded stripe but I really don't know.

I am delighted that this has generated so many responses. -Thank you all again for your interest and information.

[john gregory]

Hi, interesting topic, every member would like their grandfathers jacket.

What is the inside like, the left photo or the right one ?

[john gregory]

Does the jacket have single pleat or two under the collar ?

[Banjoman]

Here is the inside. I hope you can see what you are looking for.

[Banjoman]

I think it's the first one. The collar seems to be fastened down.

Does the jacket have single pleat or two under the collar ?

[john gregory]

Thanks, nice jacket, the two blue stripes are overseas chevrons the single is a good conduct stripe and the brass one is a wound stripe. JG

[Banjoman]

Thank you. The sad thing is that it was probably all explained to me as a child. Maps were drawn and battles were described. I enjoyed listening to the tales as a child, but the detail has gone.

[paul@bolton]

To make up a little for my earlier gaffe, a little more general information for you.

Your granddad would have received an overseas chevron for each year he served overseas.

He didn't serve overseas before 1916. He would have been entitled to the 1914/1915 Star if he had been out of UK before that.

His MIC (medal index card) which is mentioned in post 9 may have further details including the date he went overseas. They don't normally contain much extra information but still worth having as part of the jigsaw.

Paul

[Jonathan Saunders]

You lucky man! This really is the holy grail!

Uniform enthusiasts will know better than me but the uniform should always be kept out of direct sunlight, you should probably wrap it in an acid-free paper and then a suit bag during storage. Put some lavender or cinnamon in the pockets to assist against further moth damage.

If this was my grandfather's I would (sadly) be very reticent about loaning it to a museum. The reasons being that loaned items have been known to be sold or refusal to return to the rightful owner in future years. Some museums now only accept loans for very unusal items because of the problems surrounding future proof of ownership. If you did follow this route you want a legally binding agreement concerning ownership and also its return to your family if no longer displayed.

Regards,

Jonathan S

[Andrew Upton]

Your granddad would have received an overseas chevron for each year he served overseas.

Paul, that's not strictly correct. A soldier was entitled to one stripe for the first day he stepped onto a foreign shore (a red stripe if before December 31st 1914, blue stripes being used for entitlement after this date). However he didn't get the next stripe until he had served at least a further 11 months overseas (a year but with an allowance of up to 4 weeks home leave). So in theory a soldier could serve overseas for say 2 months in every year of the war and still only be entitled to the one red chevron, having not picked up the required service to be entitled to a second.

[paul@bolton]

Thanks, Andrew.

I must admit I didn't think beyond one stripe for the first year (twelve months), two for the second twelve months etc. I should have known it wasn't as simple as that but I was in a rush to make amends for calling Banjoman a 'she' in an earlier post.

Paul

[scottmarchand]

Uniform enthusiasts will know better than me but the uniform should always be kept out of direct sunlight, you should probably wrap it in an acid-free paper and then a suit bag during storage. Put some lavender or cinnamon in the pockets to assist against further moth damage.

Regards,

Jonathan S

Actually for most of this advice - no. Out of direct sunlight yes, acid free tissue is not going to hurt but won't help much either. best kept stored laid flat versus hanging, but if you pad out a hangar to spread out the stress on the seams you should be okay, you can use tissue to pad out seams and creases so they don't set fast in a sharp postion, but these wool tunics are remarkably robust as evidenced by its condition ofter 90 years of general storage. you don't want it in a bag other than an unbleached cotton muslin back - no synthetics or air tight products, this creates a micro climate that can be very detrimental to the metal especially but can also create ideal heat/humidityconditions for moth larvae that might be on the tunic to hatch. Things like lavendar, cedar etc,are ineffective on moths but their oils will attack metal insigni- they make your stuff smell nice - that's about it. Napthalene in moth balls does work and is unfortunately a bit noxious to have around. My best suggestion, if you want to, (but if there is no evidence of moth activity just watch it and do nothing), is to put it in a plastic garbage bag and into the freezer for a few weeks, ideally you want to get below -20 C but if your freezer can't then a few freeze thaw cycles should do the trick. Then vacum all the seams and pockets inside and out to remove any larvae before you freeze. Moth larvae are not really after the wool per se, they consume the proteins left on the wool, like from sweat, human skin etc. A clean wool garment is typically un appealing to moths.

[Wardog]

I think this jacket is at earliest late 1918 manufacture, perhaps post war, which would be understandable if his service continued post war. Overseas chevrons should not have been in use after 1922. Regards, Paul.

[Banjoman]

Wow - so much information and advice. It has simply hung on a hanger among my workshirts and stuff since I acquired it a good few years ago. Before that, it hung in my father's wardrobe.

Interesting to see that it might be late issue or even post war. -does anyone know how frequently equipment like this was reissued (given that an earlier one presumeably was battle damaged). It also begs the question -how did he manage to hold onto it. Was that normal? I noticed that in the demob book in his pocket there were penalties for not returning some items of equipment. Questions...questions...questions...

[john gregory]

I think this jacket is at earliest late 1918 manufacture, perhaps post war, which would be understandable if his service continued post war. Overseas chevrons should not have been in use after 1922. Regards, Paul.

I agree with you there Paul, it is certainly post WW1. JG

[Wardog]

Not sure of a time scale for exchanges but once out of the line worn out kit would have been replaced. Kit could also be infested with parasites. After the war in Germany a smarter tailored look would be expected. The post war version was less lose fitting then the wartime one, and it sounds like the collar has been re tailored to give a smarter look. After the war you could retain your greatcoat, info in the following link. Its also mentions the chance of keeping your uniform, but I thought that would have to be handed in. British servicmen have and still like to 'obtain' and retain extra kit, but officialy most was handed back. There is much less British Great War kit about than for example American. regards, Paul.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=122874&st=0&p=1179453&hl=kept%20greatcoat&fromsearch=1entry1179453

[Jonathan Saunders]

Actually for most of this advice - no. Out of direct sunlight yes, acid free tissue is not going to hurt but won't help much either. best kept stored laid flat versus hanging, but if you pad out a hangar to spread out the stress on the seams you should be okay, you can use tissue to pad out seams and creases so they don't set fast in a sharp postion, but these wool tunics are remarkably robust as evidenced by its condition ofter 90 years of general storage. you don't want it in a bag other than an unbleached cotton muslin back - no synthetics or air tight products, this creates a micro climate that can be very detrimental to the metal especially but can also create ideal heat/humidityconditions for moth larvae that might be on the tunic to hatch. Things like lavendar, cedar etc,are ineffective on moths but their oils will attack metal insigni- they make your stuff smell nice - that's about it. Napthalene in moth balls does work and is unfortunately a bit noxious to have around. My best suggestion, if you want to, (but if there is no evidence of moth activity just watch it and do nothing), is to put it in a plastic garbage bag and into the freezer for a few weeks, ideally you want to get below -20 C but if your freezer can't then a few freeze thaw cycles should do the trick. Then vacum all the seams and pockets inside and out to remove any larvae before you freeze. Moth larvae are not really after the wool per se, they consume the proteins left on the wool, like from sweat, human skin etc. A clean wool garment is typically un appealing to moths.

Thanks Scott - your comments are most helpful.

Regards,

Jonathan S

[Andrew Upton]

After the war you could retain your greatcoat, info in the following link. Its also mentions the chance of keeping your uniform, but I thought that would have to be handed in. British servicmen have and still like to 'obtain' and retain extra kit, but officialy most was handed back. There is much less British Great War kit about than for example American.

Some items of British kit always technically remained Government property - rifles, webbing, steel helmet, greatcoat, etc, etc. However, certain items became the soldiers property - boots, shirts, trousers, jackets, caps - the sort of thing worn day in, day out. Whilst serving he had to maintain them, and they would be replaced as necessary if it was not the the soldiers fault (eg a jacket worn out through use/barbed wire damage would be replaced or repaired if possible free of charge, a jacket lost or sold to a friend would not!). When he left the service they were his to keep and dispose of as he saw fit. By its very useful nature British stuff tended to be used until destruction by post-war use - boots were still emminently usable, as were shirts and trousers, hence these are the generally rare pieces today, as opposed to say jackets and caps which tended to have less function and thus are more commonly encountered.

In comparison to the British, American ex-soldiers were treated quite generously and allowed to keep pretty much all their kit, hence very large and often complete uniform collections still are commonly encountered on the collectors market.

[Wardog]

Thanks Andrew. I was sure of boots being kept and worn out but unsure of basic uniform. Forum link- http://www.1914-1918.net/demobilisation.htm

[Andrew Upton]

Thanks Andrew. I was sure of boots being kept and worn out but unsure of basic uniform. Forum link- http://www.1914-1918.net/demobilisation.htm

The greatcoat is probably the best known one - hand it back in and get an extra £1, or be allowed to keep it. They were warm and well-made items, so it wasn't necessarily an easy choice.

I might actually have to edit the helmet out of the kit that stayed "public property" - the copy I have of the 1914 Field Service Pocket Book doesn't (naturally) mention steel helmets at all, but does list "foreign service helmets" as becoming a soldiers property, so the steel equivalent might have also followed suit.

[mike050443]

Hi Banjoman

I showed this post to a good friend of mine, a great militaria buff, who was most intrigued and envious of your family heirloom. After a careful examination of the photograph of the jacket in post #27 (28th Feb) he asked, would it be possible for you to post a photo of one of the buttons? Although the detail is far from clear in the photo we think that the pattern on the button looks very similar to the South African General Service button. We know the British and the South African General Service button have similar patterns.

I've attached photos of the two patterns (coats of arms) together. Look forward to hearing from you.

Regards

[mike050443]

Ok, Button photos attached

Regards

Mike

[Banjoman]

Can't sort out photos for a day or two, but having had a look, the buttons are definitely like the right hand one of your two pictures, although I would have to say the pressing/definition is not as well defined.

Is that of any use to you?