Italian Vetterli 1870/87 10.4mm

[Khaki]

It appears from research by others that empty cases/ cartridges in 10.4mm have been found in front line trenches, where and when, I have not been able to isolate. In fact I have not seen any clear photographs of this weapon in the 1887 configeration being carried by Italian military during WW1. It is frequently stated that the Vetterli was carried by support units, I am sure this is true, but what photographic evidence is there to support this?

Any Italian collectors/historians out there who can assist??

khaki

[4thGordons]

There was some discussion of this in THIS THREAD

Chris

[Khaki]

Thanks Chris,

I had seen that thread which relates mostly to the ww1 conversion to 6.5mm, this may have been where I read about the 10.4mm cases being found in trenches. the photograph was interesting but I could not determine which models/calibre were being used. I am curious about obsolete black powder rifles such as the vetterli 1870/87 being used in combat.

regards

khaki

[4thGordons]

I thought you might drop a line (PM) to Senore Franzi Davini

Chris

[Robert Dunlop]

Maurizio provided me with the following information from Enciclopedia Militare:

"Federico Vetterli (1822-82) was a Swiss engineer, Director of the Neuhausen weapons factory.

He presented in 1867 a rifle with a cylinder lock very similar to the Flobert one. His weapon was adopted in the same year by the Swiss Army, under the name "Vetterli repeating rifle mod.1867", then changed to mod.1869.

At the end of 1871 numerous modifications were made etc ,then there was the 1874 model. The weapon held 13 cartridges under the barrel.

It was adopted by Italy in 1871 with few modifications as it was a very simple and robust model; it took the name of "Vetterli rifle mod.1870" and remained in service until 1891 (much longer for Askari and other colonial troops) under the name of Vetterli mod.1870-1887.

This last model was also named Vetterli-Vitali, by the name of the guy who modified it giving it a 4 shots magazine.

On my copy of the Enciclopedia Militare there is a nice illustration of 4 different models (mod.1870-1887,same mod. but for special troops, mod.1870 for the Carabineers and mod.1870 cavalry musket); the first 2 shown appear as it

should be to have a magazine."

Robert

[TonyE]

Good morning Robert

I do not have a copy of the encyclopedia in question, but there are a couple of points I would question.

First, the Vetterli is nothing like the Flobert system (always assuming they mean what is normally refered to as the Flobert) and neither have a cylinder. The Flobert essentially uses the hammer as a breechblock and is only suitable for very low powered cartridges whilst the Vetterli is a true bolt action with rear locking lugs.

The second is that the major difference between the Swiss and Italian models is that the former is a rimfire weapon whilst the latter is centrefire. Although both are 10.4mm the cartridges are obviously not interchangeable.

Also a minor point is that the Swiss rifle originally held twelve rounds in the magazine but this was reduced to eleven when the rifle was shortened slightly in 1870.

I think it is highly likely that that some units were still using it in the original calibre in WWI. The Italians had a very large number of 10.4mm Vetterlis in store at the time which Britain wanted to purchase (and later did buy some for Russia) and did not start converting them to the 6.5mm Model 1870/87/15 until 1915.

As mentioned in the other linked thread, I owned and shot an Italian Model 1870 for a while back in the 1960s.

Regards

TonyE

[Robert Dunlop]

Good afternoon, Tony.

Thanks for the extra details. I will forward your comments to Maurizio. I suspect he has pulled all of the relevant (but not necessarily accurate) details from his source but worth checking just in case.

Robert

[Melanie_Daniels]

1.300.000 Vetterlis in caliber 10,4 mm were produced in Italia.

400.000 were send to Russia 1914-15

200.000 were used by police, in Lybia or other

300.000 were used by Italian forces and

400.000 were modified in caliber 6,5 and also used by Italian forces.

[Khaki]

Hi Melanie,

Wonderful statistics, thank you for researching them. I have never seen them before. I did not realize how extensive was their use especially in Russia 14/15.

Very interesting data, thanks again.

regards

khaki

[TonyE]

1.300.000 Vetterlis in caliber 10,4 mm were produced in Italia.

400.000 were send to Russia 1914-15

200.000 were used by police, in Lybia or other

300.000 were used by Italian forces and

400.000 were modified in caliber 6,5 and also used by Italian forces.

Shipments of Vetterlis to Russia did not start until November 1915 via the French Atlantic ports. They could not have started in 1914 as italy was still neutral and since Britian was paying for the Vetterlis they had been trying to persuade the Italians to sell them for over twelve months. 300,000 rifles were sent together with 8 million rounds of ammunition, all the Italians were prepared to release.

A further 100,000 rifles were sent in 1916/1917 and Britain purchased new ammunition from both Italian sources and the Kansas Brass & Matal Company in the U.S.

The political situation in Russia stopped any further shipments of ammunition and by November 1918 there were 177 million rounds sitting on the dockside at Brest in deteriorating condition. In January 1919 two steamers were sent to Brest to collect 3,500 tons of Vetterli ammunition and return it to Woolwich for breaking, the Russians to be credited with the value of the scrap metal. Greenwood and Batley were contracted to supply the tools to Woolwich for breaking up the ammunition, and the condition of the ammunition and packaging when it eventually arrived at Woolwich was so bad that rounds had to be shoveled loose from the bottom of the barges.

Interestingly, the last requirement for the ammunition came from the French, who wanted 20 million rounds from the Brest stock to be held back for shipment to Vladivostock to arm the Siberian Expeditionary Force of the Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War.

The full story of the Britsh attempts to purchase the rifles and the dealings with the Italian government are in Part 3 of my British Secondary Weapons book.

Regards

TonyE

[Khaki]

I am a little confused, was the Russian shipments (ammo/rifles) in 10.4mm or in the converted 6.5mm, I have the same question about the French request for the Siberian expedition.

khaki

[TonyE]

The shipments to Russia were in 10.4mm, as was the ammunition Britain contacted for with Societa Mettalurgica Italiana (SMI) and the Kansas Brass & Metal Co.(KB&MCo) in 1916.

Attached picture is a round from my collection headstamped "K B & M C 16"

Regards

TonyE

[Khaki]

The shipments to Russia were in 10.4mm, as was the ammunition Britain contacted for with Societa Mettalurgica Italiana (SMI) and the Kansas Brass & Metal Co.(KB&MCo) in 1916.

Attached picture is a round from my collection headstamped "K B & M C 16"

Regards

TonyE

at

Thanks Tony; that's exactly what I needed.

khaki