centurion Posted 25 February , 2011 Share Posted 25 February , 2011 See this prototype for a two man tank based on Model T components A somewhat impractical armoured superstructure was planned. Note the unusual central large driving wheel. Now look at this drawing of one of the German tanks planned for 1919 Note the plate concealing the unusual central large driving wheel. Is this common piece of design merely a coincidence? Does anyone know more about the American design? Does anyone recognise the building in the photo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 25 February , 2011 Share Posted 25 February , 2011 I'm not sure that the large wheel on the Ford is the driving wheel for the tracks because it seems too far forward. You'd still need a differential to be able to skid-steer it so, unless they did major changes to the engine and gearbox, which would defeat the object of using readily-available components, I would think it would have a prop-shaft between the back of the 'box and the diff. There are no guide-wheels on the upper run and the big wheel, even as an idler, serves to keep the upper run well out of the way. I wonder what on earth the steering-wheel was for! Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 25 February , 2011 Share Posted 25 February , 2011 I would like to think that the large wheel in the centre is there solely to support the track as it traverses on the upper side. Would also like to suggest that the front wheel is the driving wheel based on the fact that if the Ford motor was in its'usual place it would be more practical to provide a compact drive from the motor. Steering wheel just a skid steer ? i.e. turn left and the left track becomes locked and turning right locks the right track. The picture of the German tank almost shows a modern day format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelS Posted 25 February , 2011 Share Posted 25 February , 2011 I wonder what on earth the steering-wheel was for! Perhaps it was similar to the famous 'you can have any colour so long as its black': Ford would only supply the Model T with them fitted! NigelS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 25 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 25 February , 2011 The picture of the German suggestion almost shows a modern day tank. It wasn't a suggestion, they were ordered in some significant number and I believe a single prototype was either completed or nearly completed when the war ended. Unfortunately no photo has been found. Whether or not German industry was capable of fulfilling such an order is a matter of conjecture - there was already a shortfall of suitable engines which were also required for artillery tractors and aircraft and the Germans had been unable to produce enough thin armour plate for the light tank prototypes as there was a severe shortage of the special alloying metals needed (and most were already diverted for use in the production of artillery). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 26 February , 2011 Share Posted 26 February , 2011 Centurion, Sorry, I should be more careful reading my meanderings, have corrected my original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 26 February , 2011 Share Posted 26 February , 2011 The similarity of appearance is eye cathching but I wonder if the large circular cover plate hides a driving sprocket or is simply an access position. My hands on experience of tanks is limited but I think that track removal and replacement would be difficult, certainly more difficult than with the driving sprocket at the end. Also the engagement between the sprocket and the track links would be less positive than with an end sprocket where, say, 75% of the teeth can engage with the track. A central driving sproket implies that the transmission is towards the centre with the engine at the end which might have allowed better engine cooling. Perhaps there were two engines. Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 26 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 26 February , 2011 My drawing is based on various sketches but all show positions for rollers around either end of the tank suggesting that there is no drive sprocket there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Brock Posted 26 February , 2011 Share Posted 26 February , 2011 Just to add to the Model T, tank connection, the Ford, three-ton tank was powered by two complete Model T power trains. One for each drive sprocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 26 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 26 February , 2011 I've uncovered some more - the little American 2 man was built by a Charles H. Martin of Springfield, Massachusetts (anything to do with the Arsenal?). The photo with the British Mk IV was taken at Springfield before August 1918. It did have a single Ford power drive to the rear sprockets. The big wheel in the middle is described as a "tread wheel" between four idlers. What was a tread wheel? With both rear sprockets driven by a single drive the gears cannot have been used to slow or speed individual tracks for steering - was this what the tread wheel did?. http://images.hemmings.com/wp-content/uploads//2010/07/CharlesMartinModelTtank_700.jpg Martin did a number of designs based on the Ford http://images.hemmings.com/wp-content/uploads//2010/08/ModelTtank_850-700x569.jpg His armour design was completely impractical being a huge armoured box with the driver so far back from the vision slit at the front that he wouldn't have been able to see anything Incidentally I've just found a video clip of three Ford 2 man tanks on trials. One has no gun or even gun mantlet fitted. Whilst they zip along if the going is good two become ditched very easily and have to be towed out, one is defeated by a modest fence post - not very impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 26 February , 2011 Share Posted 26 February , 2011 I don't see how the tread wheel can affect the track. It seems to be there to avoid the need for guide-wheels on the upper run. I can see sprocket-teeth on the rear wheel but not on any of the others so, if the track-plates have sprocket holes in, how could the track be prevented from skidding past when the tread wheel was braked? I must admit that I can't see anything like a brake drum on the drive-shaft, though, which would be the only alternative. Could it be only a prototype to prove that a tracked vehicle based on the Model T was possible but without necessarily being fully operational? Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 26 February , 2011 Share Posted 26 February , 2011 By the look of the Ford contraption (Surely you could't call it anything else) they are using a differential in the drive so there could be some use of braking either track to turn the vehicle. The large idler on top appears merely to be a track guide aka the Caterpiller design of modern earth moving equipment, where the track is lifted up near the rear of the vehicle. I presume this is to shake out any mud that has collected on the track. The second vehicle that Cent. has posted is curious in that none of the wheels are toothed so how the hec k does the vehicle move. Also noted is the number plate on the vehicle which says US Army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 26 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 26 February , 2011 It would seem that Martin built three of the two man tank Fords (at least according to Popular Science). This particularly distinguishes between the tread wheel and idler wheels. With regard to the second vehical the continuous band tracks have spring clips along them which grip the tyres (look closely at the photo). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 26 February , 2011 Share Posted 26 February , 2011 By the way the rest of the number plate is probably OPO DEPT (partly hidden by the crank handle). I did notice the clips, but originally thought that they were centering devices, however concede they could be used to provide drive as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Brock Posted 26 February , 2011 Share Posted 26 February , 2011 Incidentally I've just found a video clip of three Ford 2 man tanks on trials. One has no gun or even gun mantlet fitted. Whilst they zip along if the going is good two become ditched very easily and have to be towed out, one is defeated by a modest fence post - not very impressive. I've seen the same video and it was indeed a sorry performance. Not just defeated by a post but flipped onto its back. Re guns, they were never intended to be fitted with anything but a .30 Browning MG. I believe fifteen were built. They would be fun if tactically useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 26 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 26 February , 2011 I've seen the same video and it was indeed a sorry performance. Not just defeated by a post but flipped onto its back. Re guns, they were never intended to be fitted with anything but a .30 Browning MG. I believe fifteen were built. They would be fun if tactically useless. One of the ones in the video I have a link to had a completely blank front plate without even an aperture for a gun of any kind. The US Army Tank Board (based in Paris) speaking through Patton issued a statement to say that no tank design would be even considered for order until it had been through their trials in France (this was to avoid wasted effort through many speculative tank designs some of which were quite bizarre and is probably the reason why the single prototype steam tank was shipped off to France. However for some reason substantial orders were placed for Ford's little tank before the Tank Board had been able to evaluate it and I believe they were hopping mad, so three were retrospectively shipped out to France post haste for trials. I think the Tank Board decided that they could be used as gun tractors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Is this the same vehicle with a different suspension? Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 27 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Its the picture I already posted a link to in post 10. As I said it was another Charles H Martin design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 28 February , 2011 Share Posted 28 February , 2011 Apologies - I'd not followed the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Brock Posted 1 March , 2011 Share Posted 1 March , 2011 Is this the same vehicle with a different suspension? Gwyn No, the Ford 3-Ton used the complete drive trains, engine to axle, of two Model T's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_3-Ton_M1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 1 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 1 March , 2011 No, the Ford 3-Ton used the complete drive trains, engine to axle, of two Model T's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_3-Ton_M1918 You seem to be confusing the Ford 3 ton with the 2 man tank designed by Martin and using Ford model T components. The tank I ask about in the OP and the photo of which Gwyn was enquiring are both designs of Martin's. Whether they are in fact the same vehicle with a different set of tracks is a sensible question to which there is no answer at the moment. According to what little info is available Martin built 3 prototypes in the first half of 1918. One of the photos at Springfield in front of what must be the Mk IV 'Britannia' matches this dating (especially as the British tank is still uncamouflaged). The photo which I put up in a subsequent post and which Gwyn repeated must be of a later date given the MK VIII tank in he background. This doesn't mean that it isn't one of the three original prototypes with a new set of tracks but it doesn't mean it is either. The use of a car body to prototype the track arrangement was also followed by the British Medium D tank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Brock Posted 2 March , 2011 Share Posted 2 March , 2011 You seem to be confusing the Ford 3 ton with the 2 man tank designed by Martin and using Ford model T components. The tank I ask about in the OP and the photo of which Gwyn was enquiring are both designs of Martin's. Whether they are in fact the same vehicle with a different set of tracks is a sensible question to which there is no answer at the moment. According to what little info is available Martin built 3 prototypes in the first half of 1918. One of the photos at Springfield in front of what must be the Mk IV 'Britannia' matches this dating (especially as the British tank is still uncamouflaged). The photo which I put up in a subsequent post and which Gwyn repeated must be of a later date given the MK VIII tank in he background. This doesn't mean that it isn't one of the three original prototypes with a new set of tracks but it doesn't mean it is either. The use of a car body to prototype the track arrangement was also followed by the British Medium D tank You're quite right. I realized my mistaken assumption soon after posting. Very sorry to have muddied the waters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 3 March , 2011 Share Posted 3 March , 2011 Somewhat off topic, but is the tank in the background a Mk VIII which would imply post war. Perhaps the Ford could be considereed as a forerunner of the WW2 half track. Some years ago I recall a Land Rover with a tracked bogie on the rear end. The idea seems to have persisted. Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 3 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 3 March , 2011 Somewhat off topic, but is the tank in the background a Mk VIII which would imply post war. Perhaps the Ford could be considereed as a forerunner of the WW2 half track. Some years ago I recall a Land Rover with a tracked bogie on the rear end. The idea seems to have persisted. Old Tom See post 21 The vehicle in the photos is not a half track as was your Land Rover. Half tracks were used in WW1 and onwards (especially by the German and American forces in WW2) For example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now