tocemma Posted 17 February , 2011 Share Posted 17 February , 2011 Hello all, I am researching the service of the above Officer, commissioned into the Coldstream Guards, who was killed in a flying accident on the 23rd of April, 1918. He had enlisted as a private soldier into the Buffs in 1914, had received his commission into the Coldstream Guards, and had served in France before being sent home suffering from shell shock in 1916. Although he was considered over the required age for flying training, he was 33 at the time of his death, it seems that family intervention ensured that he was accepted. He is said to have been in the final stages of his flying training he was killed in an accident on the above date. It is reported to have been near Salisbury, though the death was registered at Calne. Can any forum member shed any light on this event? There is very little online and I am hoping that someone might be able to identify the Training Squadron, location, aircraft type and whether there were any other individuals involved or killed. Any contribution would be most welcome! Kind regards Tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 17 February , 2011 Share Posted 17 February , 2011 I'm sure I have some info on this somewhere. He was son of the Duke of Grafton, whose family estate was Wakefield Lawn at Potterspury, Northamptonshire. My great-grandfather was one of their gardeners. Do you have a photo? I have a copy of a mugshot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 17 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2011 Hi Kate, Thanks for the response. Yes I have the photo from variuos publications. Interesting that you have a family connection with the estate. I live about a mile from the family estate so it is a little local research for me. I am out of my comfort zone with the RFC/RAF stuff so I need a little assistance! Tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 17 February , 2011 Share Posted 17 February , 2011 It is reported to have been near Salisbury, though the death was registered at Calne. The RFC Airfield at Yatesbury was 4 miles to the east of its nearest town, Calne The Airfield opened in 1916 as a Training Station and was home to several units among them 36 TDS and 37 TDS which used a variety of aircraft including the Avro 504K. The airfield closed in 1919. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 17 February , 2011 Share Posted 17 February , 2011 I have just run a search on my computer, without success, but from memory I think one of his instructors was the bandleader Billy Cotton. I'm sure he recounts the accident in his autobiography I Did it My Way. I seem to remember him talking of Lord Fitzroy's new, and very expensive, overcoat being covered with engine oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 17 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2011 Dave, Thanks for the reply. Yatesbury had been one of the locations I had suspected. Thank you for the suggestion of the aircraft type. I knew someone on here would have some of the answers. Kate, Just had a quick google of Billy Cotton. Seems he took his first solo on 1st April 1918, so it seems he was a contemporary trainee rather than Lt Ipswich's instructor. Good spot though and thanks for the detail. Tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 18 February , 2011 Share Posted 18 February , 2011 Lt William Henry Alfred FitzRoy, Viscount Ipswich, of No 17 Training Squadron RAF (formerly East Kent Regt and 5th Bn, Grenadier Guards) was killed in an accident while flying RE8 D4968 on 23 April 1918. I hope that this is useful. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 18 February , 2011 Share Posted 18 February , 2011 Tocemma and all This is very interesting - thanks. You probably know that one of the places where he is commemorated is on the Ascham Memorial Arch in Eastbourne, because he went to prep school here (either Ascham or St Vincent's, they merged, but a little after his time). I knew he had died in a flying accident but not the details. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 18 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2011 Gareth, Perfect, just what I needed and thanks for taking the time to look it up. I can now start looking at it in more detail. Regards Tocemma Liz, He seems to crop up on memorials in several places! Quite a tragic story really. His son John was born in August 1914, but one of his daughters Lady Mary Rose Fitzroy, was born 5 months after his death (she died in March 2010) Viscount Ipswich's father, the 8th Duke of Grafton, died in 1930 and John Charles William Fitzroy became the 9th Duke of Grafton. Tragically he was also to die at a young age like his father. The 9th Duke was killed in a motor racing accident just three days after his 22nd birthday. He was driving a 3.3 Bugatti 59, which hit a gate post, crashed and burst into flames. The race was the Limerick Grand Prix (no I didn't know they had one either) this was a Monaco style street race through the slightly less glamorous streets of Limerick. It ran for three years pre war, and it seems it was revived in a new form last year. The young Duke was badly burnt in the accident and died later in hospital of shock and heart failure. Amazingly the car still exists, having been twice rebuilt after fatal accidents (a later driver Kenneth Bear was also killed in the Bugatti in 1949) It was sold by Bonhams for £1.3 million in 2005, and is now owned by the Chairman of Bugatti! Lt. Ipswich's widow Auriol remarried in 1929, to Lt Col Gavin R V Hume-Gore MC, formerly of the Gordon Highlanders. Sadly she too was to die at a comparatively young age of 51 in 1938. Regards Tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 18 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2011 Hello all, With Gareth's information and the earlier suggestion from Dave, I have come across the following Officer 2nd Lt. J H Farnham. He died on the 25th April 1918. His unit is shown as 17th Training Squadron, which seems to confirm the location as RAF Yatesbury. I wonder if he was flying with Lt Ipswich as Observer or whether Lt Ipswich was flying solo with ballast in the gunner's position? The date is very close, if he was involved possibly he survived the crash but later died of his injuries? Of course I realise the attrition rate was probably very high in training and I gather from what I have read that the RE8 could be a bit unforgiving of mistakes by trainees. J H Farnham grave Anyone know by any chance? Regards Tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 18 February , 2011 Share Posted 18 February , 2011 Tocemma 2Lt James Horace Farnham of No 17 Training Sqn was killed in an accident while flying RE8 A4462 on 25 April 1918. His observer, 2Lt E N Nathan, was uninjured. No 17 TS suffered only three fatal casualties during its existence - the other being Lt Stanley Burnett, who was killed in an accident on 31 May 1918 while flying RE8 D4965; he collided with a BE2e from No 13 TS near Yatesbury. I hope that this is useful. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 18 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2011 Gareth, Thanks for your latest. I take it then Lt.Ipswich was flying solo in the absence of any other information. The obituary in Flight magazine for 6th May 1918 states that he was almost at the completion of his pilot training. Would you know if formal accident reports were compiled? I presume these are held at the National Archives if they exist? An additional point, do you know if training aircraft were marked as such, or if any specific unit insignia was applied to 17 TS aircraft? Many thanks for the detailed information so far. Regards Tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fetubi Posted 18 February , 2011 Share Posted 18 February , 2011 The Casualty Card (RAF Museum) for the Viscount mentions he got into a low vertical spin which resulted in the crash. Regards, Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 19 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 19 February , 2011 Trevor, Many thanks for this information. I will now start to look in the right places! I apologise for the basic natue of some of the questions I have posed. As I said at the start of thread I am a little out of my comfort zone with matters RFC, particularly as regards location of records etc. My thanks to all those who have contributed so far. Regards Tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celia75 Posted 2 January , 2021 Share Posted 2 January , 2021 But late to the conversation, but just wanted to say thanks. Vicount Ipswich was my great grandfather and it’s fascinating to hear more about his death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 2 January , 2021 Share Posted 2 January , 2021 (edited) Plenty of other info on Google about him. Coldstream history says Joined 12.9 14 Rfc 19.10.17 Edited 2 January , 2021 by Coldstreamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celia75 Posted 2 January , 2021 Share Posted 2 January , 2021 Thanks, I have a photo and was always told he died in battle (evidently that was incorrect but it was such a tragedy that echoed throughout my grandmothers life, I think the white lie is acceptable). His death led to a sequence of events that were achingly tragic and eventually led to the Dukedom going to distant cousins. It was a very sad time in history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 2 January , 2021 Share Posted 2 January , 2021 1. 23.4.18 R.E.8 D4968, 17 TS, Yatesbury Stalled on low turn, spun and crashed, Yatesbury Lt William Henry Alfred Fitzroy, Viscount Ipswich (33) killed http://www.rcawsey.co.uk/Acc1918a.htm 2. The Court of Inquiry found that 'The cause of the accident was in our opinion ..... an error in judgement in turning near the ground, causing the machine to stall.' http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/ipswich-w.h.a.f.-william-henry-alfred-fitzroy 3. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/47721680/william-henry_alfred-fitzroy JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celia75 Posted 2 January , 2021 Share Posted 2 January , 2021 Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howard Posted 29 August , 2023 Share Posted 29 August , 2023 Hi This is a message only really of interest for 'Celia 75'. I am a Doctorate student studying the British Peerage during the Great War. As you no doubt know, titled heads had a rough time during the War losing proportionally more of their young men than other social groups. You are clearly related to the Grafton Dukedom and I wondered whether you have any letter, diaries or other documents written by the family at that time and relating to their wartime experiences. I have written to the archivist at Euston Hall, but, as you say, the current Dukedom is occupied by family members some distance from those in place during the War. A long shot, I know, but I have to check out all possible sources. Regards John Howard - Pembroke College, Oxford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 31 August , 2023 Share Posted 31 August , 2023 John, One member of the peerage you may not have found, because he was an officer of a not socially-elite regiment was Lt. & Adj. The Hon. Herbert Lyttelton Pelham, 2nd Bn. Royal Sussex Regiment, kia 14-Sep-14 at Vendresse, France; he was one/the son of the Earl of Chichester. From Hart’s Annual Army List of 1914, Gazetted 2/Lt 04-June-04; Lt. 26-September-08. Good Luck with the D.Phil! Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howard Posted 1 September , 2023 Share Posted 1 September , 2023 Thanks JMB Yes - he is on my list. I have yet to closely research him, but, as with Viscount Ipswich, if anyone has any private papers relating to him as yet not studied I would, of course, be very interested. Now I am in this group I will throw out another question: Am I missing anything in the quest for lists of officers in any given regiment that fought in the War? With the one exception of the Coldstream Guards whose regimental history lists all 750 officers that served, I have not found anything similar in any other reg. history. Deaths, yes, medals, yes, mentioned in despatches, yes, but not a full list of those who served. It can be compiled from the Army Lists, of course, but this is an exceedingly time consuming endeavour. 'Forces War Records' could do it fairly easily, but refuse to do so. Letters and e mails to regimental archivists have so far drawn a blank or nil response. All this is important if I want, as I do, to compare casualty rates between regiments, elites and non-elites and nobly born and non nobly born within regiments. Many thanks for any help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peak Posted 22 hours ago Share Posted 22 hours ago The 1914 star trio to Viscount Ipswich Coldstream Guards 23rd April 1918. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quemerford Posted 21 hours ago Share Posted 21 hours ago Where are these medals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peak Posted 8 hours ago Share Posted 8 hours ago There in my Medal collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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