Two KRRC officer cap badges

[Liz in Eastbourne]

This is the cap badge worn by most of the 21/KRRC officers on the group photo I am currently looking at on the thread about the original Yeoman Riflemen:

But a couple of them have this one:

I am sure I have seen an explanation of these two cap badges somewhere but cannot find it. The less common one with the obvious Maltese cross was what I expected. What's the little one? And why are there two types in one group? It's clearly nothing to do with rank.

I am sure this is a very elementary question and it's about time I got it straight!

Liz

[FROGSMILE]

This is the cap badge worn by most of the 21/KRRC officers on the group photo I am currently looking at on the thread about the original Yeoman Riflemen:

But a couple of them have this one:

I am sure I have seen an explanation of these two cap badges somewhere but cannot find it. The less common one with the obvious Maltese cross was what I expected. What's the little one? And why are there two types in one group? It's clearly nothing to do with rank.

I am sure this is a very elementary question and it's about time I got it straight!

Liz

Liz, the standard badge of what one might call the mainstream KRR was the small bugle on a red cord boss, as stipulated by the dress regulations of the regular regiment (known to its wearers as 'the cherry'). Some of the officers are wearing a badge in the shape of a small(ish) Maltese Cross that could be, either from a battalion of the London Regiment affiliated with the KRR (e.g. London Rifles), or it might perhaps be the badge of the war raised 21st (Yeoman Rifles) KRR and unique to them. I do not know for sure if they had their own badge, but I don't think so.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Liz, the standard badge of what one might call the mainstream KRR was the small bugle on a red cord boss, as stipulated by the dress regulations of the regular regiment (known to its wearers as 'the cherry'). Some of the officers are wearing a badge in the shape of a small(ish) Maltese Cross that could be, either from a battalion of the London Regiment affiliated with the KRR (e.g. Finsbury Rifles), or it might perhaps be the badge of the war raised 21st (Yeoman Rifles) KRR and unique to them. I do not know for sure if they had their own badge, but I don't think so.

Thank you very much, Frogsmile, now I remember that nickname 'cherry'.

The other badge appears on the caps of two men who were were not from any other regiment and were first commissioned to the 15/KRRC, a reserve battalion. But this was true of a number of other junior officers who are all wearing the cherry, so it remains a bit of a mystery.

I am sure you're the right that the Yeoman Rifles had no badge of their own, because apart from these two and the men who have been attached/seconded from other regiments, the officers are all wearing the cherry in the 1916 group photo.

Liz

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you very much, Frogsmile, now I remember that nickname 'cherry'.

The other badge appears on the caps of two men who were were not from any other regiment and were first commissioned to the 15/KRRC, a reserve battalion. But this was true of a number of other junior officers who are all wearing the cherry, so it remains a bit of a mystery.

I am sure you're the right that the Yeoman Rifles had no badge of their own, because apart from these two and the men who have been attached/seconded from other regiments, the officers are all wearing the cherry in the 1916 group photo.

Liz

There were a number of Rifle regiments affiliated to the KRR but I think the most likely contenders for your 2 men are 2 battalions of the London Regiment, either the 9th (Queen Victoria's) or the 6th (City of London).

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thank you for posting these - they certainly do look the same.

But that remains a mystery for me because I've looked at both men's records and neither had any room in their records for any such affiliation, as far as I can see. They were both southerners, that's the only thing one could see in favour of it.

One, TPA Hervey, born 1887, had been in the Territorial Force, 5th Bn the Sherwood Forsters, pre-WW1, before going to Fiji as a colonial officer. He came back in July 1915 and was commissioned into the 15/KRRC in August, then to the 21/KRRC.

The other, WAJ Willans (in the picture) was born in 1896 and commissioned in 1915. I will check him again.

Liz

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you for posting these - they certainly do look the same.

But that remains a mystery for me because I've looked at both men's records and neither had any room in their records for any such affiliation, as far as I can see. They were both southerners, that's the only thing one could see in favour of it.

One, TPA Hervey, born 1887, had been in the Territorial Force, 5th Bn the Sherwood Forsters, pre-WW1, before going to Fiji as a colonial officer. He came back in July 1915 and was commissioned into the 15/KRRC in August, then to the 21/KRRC.

The other, WAJ Willans (in the picture) was born in 1896 and commissioned in 1915. I will check him again.

Liz

The only other thing I can think of is that they were both unable to get the scarlet cord boss pattern badge in time for the photograph and so used a soldiers badge, but given that officers privately purchased their badges from gentlemen's military outfitters that seems most unlikely.

[7t2ndswinger]

If the badge is smaller than a regular KRRC, then the 11th London (Finsbury Rifles) is a possibility as the 6th and 9th London are pretty much the sime size. They could be wearing a private purchase badge also, I have a KRRC in blackened cast silver which is the same size (two thirds of a 'normal') as the rare small pattern badge with King's crown but without the 'Defence of Ladysmith' honour.

[FROGSMILE]

If the badge is smaller than a regular KRRC, then the 11th London (Finsbury Rifles) is a possibility as the 6th and 9th London are pretty much the sime size. They could be wearing a private purchase badge also, I have a KRRC in blackened cast silver which is the same size (two thirds of a 'normal') as the rare small pattern badge with King's crown but without the 'Defence of Ladysmith' honour.

I don't think it is the Finsbury Rifles (at least not to my eyes). As far as I know the KRR always wore the scarlet cord boss on their SD caps.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I tried to make the one of Willans a bit clearer:

This is Hervey - is it in fact the same? I was trying to enlarge them but haven't succeeded, just increased the contrast a bit.

In case it's any help...

Liz

[FROGSMILE]

I tried to make the one of Willans a bit clearer:

This is Hervey - is it in fact the same? I was trying to enlarge them but haven't succeeded, just increased the contrast a bit.

In case it's any help...

Liz

Not really clear enough to change my earlier conclusion Liz, it is an interesting conundrum (or at least it is to me) and I cannot at the moment see what other conclusion there might be. Have you considered sending a copy to the Green Jackets Museum at Winchester? They might be able to help.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Not really clear enough to change my earlier conclusion Liz, it is an interesting conundrum (or at least it is to me) and I cannot at the moment see what other conclusion there might be. Have you considered sending a copy to the Green Jackets Museum at Winchester? They might be able to help.

I got the photograph from the RGJ Museum , so it might indeed be a good idea to ask them! I'll let you know if they have any thoughts on the subject.

Thanks,

Liz

[FROGSMILE]

I got the photograph from the RGJ Museum , so it might indeed be a good idea to ask them! I'll let you know if they have any thoughts on the subject.

Thanks,

Liz

See attached Liz. It's interesting to note that in both WW1 and WW2 the KRR officers are in red cord boss badges and the KRR ORs with a maltese cross.

And the regulations:

[badjez]

Its not unheard of for officers to adopt the OR pattern cap badge. I have seen photos of a 5/Lincs officer wearing an OSD Sphinx, not the authorised officers' star. Sometimes these were officers who were commissioned from the ranks.

Stephen.

[FROGSMILE]

Its not unheard of for officers to adopt the OR pattern cap badge. I have seen photos of a 5/Lincs officer wearing an OSD Sphinx, not the authorised officers' star. Sometimes these were officers who were commissioned from the ranks.

Stephen.

Yes, we did mention that further up the thread, but it seemed, on balance, unlikely that two officers would do so in the same photo. Nevertheless, it might well be the case.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Frogsmile

Sorry, I should have thanked you right away for your excellent photographs and the regulations with drawings - very informative - but was waiting in the hope of being able to communicate a reply from the RGJ Museum, who had acknowledged my query. Still no reply though. Perhaps they're equally flummoxed.

Re Badjez' comment, neither of these two were commissioned from the ranks as far as I can tell, one having just got back from colonial service work in Fiji, and any others who were, came from other regiments and had the proper officers' cap badge. Perhaps we'll never know the reason.

Thanks for all your help.

Liz

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile

Sorry, I should have thanked you right away for your excellent photographs and the regulations with drawings - very informative - but was waiting in the hope of being able to communicate a reply from the RGJ Museum, who had acknowledged my query. Still no reply though. Perhaps they're equally flummoxed.

Re Badjez' comment, neither of these two were commissioned from the ranks as far as I can tell, one having just got back from colonial service work in Fiji, and any others who were, came from other regiments and had the proper officers' cap badge. Perhaps we'll never know the reason.

Thanks for all your help.

Liz

Liz, I have since learned that it seems almost all Rifle regiment officers (including the various affiliated regiments of the Londons) wore cord boss badges, so it seems more possible that they were simply wearing ORs badges until properly kitted out by their tailors. This would not have been that unusual, as quartermasters stores did not hold officers' insignia at that time and the concept of 'regimental shops' selling items of uniform was not as well developed as today. It does seem odd to see 2 officers in the same situation though and I guess we will never know for sure.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Just found this comment in Unversed in Arms, A subaltern on the Western Front, the first World War Diary of PD Ravenscroft MC, ed Antony Bird - Ravenscroft was a 2/Lt in the 2nd Bn KRRC:

'Thursday 14th September 1916 (in France)

................

III Corps Padre mistook me for a Padre because at that time we wore the black Maltese Cross in our caps.'

Not very enlightening as to why two of the 21/KRRC junior officers had different caps from the rest in Feb 1916 but it does show the Maltese Cross was sometimes worn by officers.

Liz

[FROGSMILE]

Just found this comment in Unversed in Arms, A subaltern on the Western Front, the first World War Diary of PD Ravenscroft MC, ed Antony Bird - Ravenscroft was a 2/Lt in the 2nd Bn KRRC:

'Thursday 14th September 1916 (in France)

................

III Corps Padre mistook me for a Padre because at that time we wore the black Maltese Cross in our caps.'

Not very enlightening as to why two of the 21/KRRC junior officers had different caps from the rest in Feb 1916 but it does show the Maltese Cross was sometimes worn by officers.

Liz

Hi Liz, thanks for posting, it's little anecdotes like that that make this so interesting. I wonder what the Green Jackets Museum will have to say, they might not even have known that as individual battalions could sometimes become like commanding officers feifdoms. It's also possible that the 2nd battalion wanted to be 'different' to the other regular battalions to mark it out.