Ariel Dart Throwers...What are they ?

[nthornton1979]

Hi all,

Can anyone shed any light on these weapons/machines ?

I've never heard of them and drawn a blank when I Googled it.

This reference taken from 7/8th KOSB war diary describing a trench raid.

"In the next bay an ariel dart thrower was found by Sergt Murfin who had a previous knowledge of this machine. It could not be moved as it was bolted down into timber. He destroyed it with a bomb."

Cheers

Neil

[SiegeGunner]

Aerial darts (or 'flechettes') were projectiles rather like crossbow bolts that were dropped in clusters from aircraft. German spigot mortars, which might well be bolted down to a wooden base, fired a finned explosive projectile that sort of resembled a fat dart, so perhaps that is what Sgt Murfin blew up.

[4thGordons]

Aerial darts (or 'flechettes') were projectiles rather like crossbow bolts that were dropped in clusters from aircraft. German spigot mortars, which might well be bolted down to a wooden base, fired a finned explosive projectile that sort of resembled a fat dart, so perhaps that is what Sgt Murfin blew up.

I think I have sometimes seen the spigot mortars referred to in contemporary accounts as "Aerial Torpedoes" is there perhaps a confusion here regarding the two names perhaps. My understanding regarding aerial darts was as Siege Gunner describes.

Chris

[nthornton1979]

Thanks for this guys,

Seems highly plausable.

Neil

[Andy Wade]

Some good pictures of Flechettes here

I expect if dropped from sufficient height they would go down through a man's helmet right to his feet.

[Piorun]

The war diary is most likely referring to a Granatenwerfer 16 which, as Siege Gunner notes, was a small type of portable spigot mortar which threw a round that resembled a fat dart with four fins. Given that the fins and the flight through the air might be considered to resemble some characteristics of an aerial dart, it's clear that the diary writer had confused the two. Aerial darts were just that, darts dropped from the air, but they could be finned or un-finned. They were also called flechettes. However, all flechettes were not necessarily finned and were not necessarily aerial darts. They were also used in small-arms and artillery pieces. Antony

[centurion]

Aerial torpedo or aerial dart were common names for missiles used in a trench mortar role which had a tubular extension that fitted over the barrel of a small mortar (as in a number of French designs) allowing a large size warhead to be launched from a small bore. The tubular extension had fins. The soldiers would probably be familiar with the French missiles (which were quite widely used) and would naturally regard the Granatenwerfer which appeared to have similar characteristics as being in the same class (even though technically they are a different type of weapon) and apply the name used for the French devices to it.

[SiegeGunner]

So can I be forgiven for thinking that I covered the ground pretty well in post #2 ...?

[Andy Wade]

You were very good, but spoiled it with that ever so slightly smug attitude ...young man.

[Piorun]

Siege Gunner: you covered the ground well but failed to allow for the intense scrutiny which can be brought to bear on such matters by elderly veterans with little else to do but get their teeth (especially if they still have them) into the grammatical and technological intricacies of finned or unfinned flechetttes or darts and . . . . . .oh, well, you did cover it Thanks, Antony

[ph0ebus]

Is this what we are talking about?

-Daniel

[SiegeGunner]

...young man.

I think you must be mistaking me for someone else, Andy ...

[Old Owl]

Some good pictures of Flechettes here

I expect if dropped from sufficient height they would go down through a man's helmet right to his feet.

Hi Andy,

I had always thought that these were only dropped from planes and had never realised that they could also be launched from the ground--presumably in some sort of explosive container which then showered them upon the poor souls beneath. What a nasty piece of work!!

Robert

[centurion]

Is this what we are talking about?

No those are for dropping from aircraft and are not connected with aerial torpedos or darts fired from various trench weapons despite siege gunners summation. The items concerned may look like the one shown here with the original Priesterwerfer from which the Granatenwerfer series was developed

or one of these French types

The final version of the Granatenwerfer looked like this

[ph0ebus]

No those are for dropping from aircraft and are not connected with aerial torpedos or darts fired from various trench weapons despite siege gunners summation. The items concerned may look like the one shown here with the original Priesterwerfer from which the Granatenwerfer series was developed

or one of these French types

The final version of the Granatenwerfer looked like this

A picture is indeed worth a thousand words. Thanks!

Daniel

[Marco]

For those who do not understand the working of the darts the Swiss Air Force museum has a high-tec display:

Regards,

Marco

[Piorun]

Hi Andy,

I had always thought that these were only dropped from planes and had never realised that they could also be launched from the ground--presumably in some sort of explosive container which then showered them upon the poor souls beneath. What a nasty piece of work!!

Robert

Robert: the examples you posted all appear to be flechettes that would be dropped from planes. As noted above, they would not be launched from the ground. Those projectiles were not flechettes but simply resembled them in the fins, hence the reference to "fat darts". They were more like finned grenades (Centurion's photos). Flechettes could however be fired from arty (a bit like a shot-gun effect) or small-arms. Antony

[centurion]

With the exception of things like the larger Rankin Dart (intended for anti balloon and airships work) aircraft darts were not explosive and relied on kinetic energy coupled with a sharp point do do the job. Contrary to the photo above they were not usually hand dropped, a special container, that could be fixed under the fuselage, was used which the pilot opened by a sophisticated mechanism (often known as a length of string). This could be set to allow the darts to fall out as a longer 'spray' rather than all at once and was intended to be useful when attacking a column. I've never heard of them used from a gun like canister or shrapnel (they would tend to tumble at first and loose kinetic energy quite quickly and were much more expensive to make than canister or shrapnel balls anyway) Perhaps Antony can elucidate further?

The French (and Italian and Roumanian) aerial torpedoes/darts (the torpedo name in this instance derives for the old use to describe a mine) relied on their explosive charge and were fairly slow (and easily visible) in flight as I suspect the was first version of the projectile from the Priesterwerfer/ Granatenwerfer series (see photo above). The smaller more streamlined Granatenwerfer 16 missile was probably quicker but I think was still visible in flight. The French developed some comparatively large aerial torpedoes that wobbled their way through the air.

However the first models were much smaller

German practice when using the Granatenwerfer 16 evolved so they were usually mounted and fired as a battery (of six) so that salvoes came over. If a single one was found as in the account quoted this would suggest that it was early in its use and might have been a Priesterwerfer acquired from the KuK or a Granatenwerfer 15 both of which were less portable than the later model.

[Piorun]

The use of flechettes from small-arms or arty is a post-WW1 (even WW2) development and I only mention it for interest in the development and use of ground-fired flechettes as an anti-personnel weapon. Beehive shells were used in arty and tanks to deliver a shrapnel-type burst that scattered the flechettes in all directiions and I believe there was quite some controversy when the concept was revived by the Israeli military in the last decade. Special 12-gauge shotguns were developed that used flechettee rounds and, almost needless to say, the US added chemical toxins to the mix. As our Forum is WW1, I'll leave it at that. Antony

[truthergw]

For those who do not understand the working of the darts the Swiss Air Force museum has a high-tec display:

Regards,

Marco

At last! A museum for those of us not blessed with imagination.

[centurion]

At last! A museum for those of us not blessed with imagination.

Shame it got it wrong

[Robert Dunlop]

centurion, are you saying that flechettes were never dropped by hand from aircraft?

Robert

[centurion]

centurion, are you saying that flechettes were never dropped by hand from aircraft?

Robert

Do read my post 18 above - I said not usually. The chances of hitting any specific target with such a small number dropped in the way shown would be very small (and picking them up in such a way in a gauntleted hand would be difficult any way unless there was a big open box of them in the cockpit which would be impossible given the dimensions of the aircraft of the day)

[centurion]

German diagram illustrating the way in which flechettes were dropped

There is a very similar French one

A year or so back someone sold a flechette box such as shown on e bay

[centurion]

British flechette canister

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p208/tpb2002/aerial/dartcan1.jpg

BTW that Swiss museum appears to have copied a photo in a WW1 period French periodical. This has a gauntleted hand holding a small number of flechettes for the camera. There is no suggestion that this is how they are dropped.