Dragon Posted 28 January , 2011 Share Posted 28 January , 2011 Does anyone know what this is, please? It has a spike to push through fabric and secure with a metal button. Its longest length is 3 cm. I know the F and W stand for Friedrich Wilhelm, and some possible units, thanks to a Forum friend. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Blonde Posted 28 January , 2011 Share Posted 28 January , 2011 Cartouche leather ammo pouch emblem? Can we see a picture of the rear please? Connaught Stranger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 28 January , 2011 Share Posted 28 January , 2011 Does anyone know what this is, please? It has a spike to push through fabric and secure with a metal button. Its longest length is 3 cm. I know the F and W stand for Friedrich Wilhelm, and some possible units, thanks to a Forum friend. Thank you. It appears to be a lapel type badge representing a 'sabretache' as used by mounted Imperial German troops. It might have been coloured originally (painted) and perhaps used as a lapel emblem by old cavalrymen to mark their service and allegiance. tarsoly n, old, A flat bag made of leather, with a shoulder-belt. historically, a decorated flat bag suspended from the weapon belt of a Hungarian hussar, next to his sabre, a sabretache, originally serving to keep money, food or ammunition in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 28 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 28 January , 2011 This is the rear and a sideways view. I was mistaken when I said that there was a spike which would be secured with a button. It doesn't come apart. The slider-thing moves a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 28 January , 2011 Share Posted 28 January , 2011 If the original identification of FW as Friedrich Wilhelm is correct, I can think of no association with the German cavalry. There are some Prussian infantry contenders: Grenadier-Regiment Koenig Friedrich Wilhelm IV. (1. Pommersches) Nr. 2; Grenadier-Regiment Koenig Friedrich Wilhelm I.(2. Ostpreussisches) Nr. 3; Leib-Grenadier-Regiment Koenig Friedrich Wilhelm III. (1. Brandenburgisches) Nr. 8 or Grenadier-Regiment Koenig Friedrich Wilhelm II. (1.Schlesisches) Nr. 10. Unfortunately what I know about German insignia could be written on the back of a stamp, so I have no other suggestions. Perhaps some one else will have the references to hand. Failing that I can only suggest an internet seach - but at least these four contenders will provide a smaller target. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 28 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 28 January , 2011 (edited) You all know more than I do and I'm very grateful for the suggestions. The item was in a metal box with "Ypres 1.7.17" scratched on to it and it also contains a 1.5 cm high capital I with a loop at its back and a two-pronged metal thing like a small kirbygrip through the loop. I've no idea whether the brooch and the letter are linked. The owner of the box was a British Machine Gunner. I don't know whether that adds anything. Edited to add 'British' Edited 28 January , 2011 by Dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 28 January , 2011 Share Posted 28 January , 2011 I know I have seen that before, but Google is being quite tempermental at the moment. It keeps serving up Harry Potter Hogwarts Houses Coats-of-Arms! Given the intertwined RW I was thinking it might be Royal Wuttenberg but i am not finding anything close. -Daniel EDIT, ah, you are correct, it is FW not RW. have a look here: Voila You will find your answer about halfway down the page, I think. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 28 January , 2011 Share Posted 28 January , 2011 If the original identification of FW as Friedrich Wilhelm is correct, I can think of no association with the German cavalry. There are some Prussian infantry contenders: Grenadier-Regiment Koenig Friedrich Wilhelm IV. (1. Pommersches) Nr. 2; Grenadier-Regiment Koenig Friedrich Wilhelm I.(2. Ostpreussisches) Nr. 3; Leib-Grenadier-Regiment Koenig Friedrich Wilhelm III. (1. Brandenburgisches) Nr. 8 or Grenadier-Regiment Koenig Friedrich Wilhelm II. (1.Schlesisches) Nr. 10. Unfortunately what I know about German insignia could be written on the back of a stamp, so I have no other suggestions. Perhaps some one else will have the references to hand. Failing that I can only suggest an internet seach - but at least these four contenders will provide a smaller target. Jack Within 'German' I was of course including Prussian and there are a number of famous such cavalry regiments including perhaps most famously the so-called 'Deaths Head Hussars' who, incidentally, would have worn a sabretache in full dress like all Hussar regiments. Death's Head's Hussars - "Totenkopf-husaren" One regiment stood out above the others. It dressed in black and took as its badge a skull. The regiment became known as the Death's Head Hussars and struck fear into the enemy for many years. It was the 1st Life Hussar Regiment (1. Leib-Husaren-Regiment) The chefs of this unit were: 1804-1808 von Prittwitz, 1808-1840 His Majesty Friedrich Wilhelm III. Personally I think that the cypher on the sabretache refers to Friedrich Wilhelm Rex of Prussia and the crown is I believe Prussian in style, although I am not saying it was necessarily for the 1st Life Hussar Regiment. There were several other contenders: Garde-Husaren-Regiment (Guard Hussar Regiment) <li>1. Leib-Husaren-Regiment (1 Life) - the "Death's Head Hussars" <li>2. Leib-Husaren-Regiment (2 Life Hussar Regiment) <li>3. Brandenburgisches Husaren-Regiment (Brandenburg Hussar Regiment) <li>4. Schleßisches Hussaren-Regiment (1st Silesian Hussar Regiment) <li>5. Pommersches Husaren-Regiment (Pomeranian Hussar Regiment) <li>6. Schleßisches Hussaren-Regiment (2nd Silesian Hussar Regiment) <li>8. Rheinlandisches Husaren-Regiment (1st Rhenish Hussar Regiment) <li>9. Rheinlandisches Husaren-Regiment (Rhenish Hussar Regiment) <li>10. Magdeburgisches Husaren-Regiment (1st Magdeburg Hussar Regiment) <li>11. Rheinlandisches Husaren-Regiment (2nd Rhenish Hussar Regiment) <li>12. ? Hussaren-Regiment ( ???? Hussar Regiment) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 28 January , 2011 Share Posted 28 January , 2011 This is the rear and a sideways view. I was mistaken when I said that there was a spike which would be secured with a button. It doesn't come apart. The slider-thing moves a bit. That fixture is of a type typical for a button hole lapel badge (i.e. worn in the place a button hole flower would normally go). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 28 January , 2011 Share Posted 28 January , 2011 We need a close up of the cap on his knee. So far it can be seen that he has a belt from the 1914 leather equipment issued mainly to the Service battalions of Kitchener recruited 'Armies'. He also has an economy pattern tunic which dates the pic as likely to be 1915-16. It seems it is definitively a Prussian Hussar Sabretache as per the enclosed example from a militaria sales auction: AN IMPERIAL GERMAN PRUSSIAN HUSSAR OFFICER'S SABRETACHE, circa 1910. Leather pouch with red leather scalloped flap covered in red wool with silver bullion braid trim and crowned 'FWR' cipher. Complete with black enameled leather hanger straps with gilt metal fittings. As worn by officers of both the 1st Lieb-Hussar and the 3rd Hussar Regiments. I suspect your machine gunner originally came from either the 1st Lieb-Hussar or the 3rd Hussar Regiments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 28 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 28 January , 2011 So if I understand you correctly, going back to post #3, this might be a brooch emblem or (lapel) badge representing the sabretache of a Prussian Hussar, because it echoes the shape and cypher, and may represent a former affiliation of the man who owned it. Thank you! I should have said that the Machine Gunner was British and I suspect the badge was a trophy, or maybe a purchase or a swap. It was his metal box. Sorry for not being clear. (I'm afraid I'm a bit perplexed by the post extract quoted in #10 about a cap and a knee.) Many thanks to people for taking the time to make suggestions. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 28 January , 2011 Share Posted 28 January , 2011 Gwyn I have done some more digging on this. It is evident that the FWR cypher was in wide use in the Prussian army, so I am beginning to think that the key to it will be to determine to which Prussian King the stylised crown can be attributed. Not being an expert on parts of a crown either, I am not sure what the bow-like items which join the circumference to the top of the crown are called, but the example you show has seven of them. Most royal Wappen that I have looked at so far, only have five on show. So, if someone can pin down who is linked to the stylised seven, we may be able to get a bit further. Of the gren regts I mentioned, the only possible contender would have been Gren 10, which was heavily involved in Flanders leading up to the date on the box, but their cypher, as published in their history was quite different in appearance as far as I can tell. This does not rule it out totally, but it certainly makes it unlikely. Have you mentioned this to Joe Rookery yet? Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 28 January , 2011 Share Posted 28 January , 2011 Gwyn I have done some more digging on this. It is evident that the FWR cypher was in wide use in the Prussian army, so I am beginning to think that the key to it will be to determine to which Prussian King the stylised crown can be attributed. Not being an expert on parts of a crown either, I am not sure what the bow-like items which join the circumference to the top of the crown are called, but the example you show has seven of them. Most royal Wappen that I have looked at so far, only have five on show. So, if someone can pin down who is linked to the stylised seven, we may be able to get a bit further. Of the gren regts I mentioned, the only possible contender would have been Gren 10, which was heavily involved in Flanders leading up to the date on the box, but their cypher, as published in their history was quite different in appearance as far as I can tell. This does not rule it out totally, but it certainly makes it unlikely. Have you mentioned this to Joe Rookery yet? Jack Seven 'half arches', as per the identical example on the circa 1910 sabretache for the 1st Lieb and 3rd Hussar regiments in post #10. It has nothing to do with 'grenadiers', grenadiers do not use sabretaches and never have done. The Prussian Crown Jewels is a set of crowns, orb and scepters used to crown Kings of Prussia of the Hohenzollern dynasty, which continued to be used as the head of that house became the Kaiser of the German Empire on January 18, 1871. the Crown of Wilhelm II (1889), or Hohenzollern crown, is the only piece dating from the imperial period, but being very similar to older crowns. In the absence of further state regalia for the German Empire (1871-1918), the older royal Prussian Crown Jewels were sometimes also regarded as German Crown Jewels: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 28 January , 2011 Share Posted 28 January , 2011 Horse Harness,Bridle, Furniture??? [that has been adapted as a lapel posy catch] HB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 28 January , 2011 Share Posted 28 January , 2011 Horse Harness,Bridle, Furniture??? [that has been adapted as a lapel posy catch] HB Now that you mention it, the soldering job on this is pretty fugly. Maybe this is indeed something that was made/adapted from something else, and the maker was not terribly skilled (or at least neat) in terms of his soldering skills. Might be worthwhile to crosspost this to GMIC...any takers? -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 29 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 29 January , 2011 Thank you all for your help. I am reading with great interest. Please feel free to ask elsewhere - I don't know what GMIC is though. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 29 January , 2011 Share Posted 29 January , 2011 Gentleman's Military Interest Club. I will crosspost forthwith and report back. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 29 January , 2011 Share Posted 29 January , 2011 Horse Harness,Bridle, Furniture??? [that has been adapted as a lapel posy catch] HB No ! It is merely a lapel badge in the shape of something unique to hussars - a 'sabretache', and so instantly recognisable to fellow old soldiers at that time. Just as a brooch in the shape of a red beret could only be for paratroopers. I don't see what is so complicated about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MACRAE Posted 29 January , 2011 Share Posted 29 January , 2011 No ! It is merely a lapel badge in the shape of something unique to hussars - a 'sabretache', and so instantly recognisable to fellow old soldiers at that time. Just as a brooch in the shape of a red beret could only be for paratroopers. I don't see what is so complicated about this. In other words a association badge. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 29 January , 2011 Share Posted 29 January , 2011 I am happy to go along with the cavalry theory, but I do not buy into being a lapel badge without more information. 3 cm would be long for such a thing and the remainder looks too bulky for a discreet item for a lapel. It looks far more like an item which is inserted through someting made of leather - possibly thick cloth, then secured - hence the horse furniture suggestion, but it could equally well have decorated a piece of personal equipment. Gwyn, what does it weigh and what is the exposed length of shank when it is in the closed position? We still need to try to pin down the actual regiment and try to determine how someone recovered it on the northern part of the Western Front. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 29 January , 2011 Share Posted 29 January , 2011 I am happy to go along with the cavalry theory, but I do not buy into being a lapel badge without more information. 3 cm would be long for such a thing and the remainder looks too bulky for a discreet item for a lapel. It looks far more like an item which is inserted through someting made of leather - possibly thick cloth, then secured - hence the horse furniture suggestion, but it could equally well have decorated a piece of personal equipment. Gwyn, what does it weigh and what is the exposed length of shank when it is in the closed position? We still need to try to pin down the actual regiment and try to determine how someone recovered it on the northern part of the Western Front. Jack Why do you think the regiment has not been identified when it has already been established that the distinct pattern of sabretache was used only by the 1st Lieb and 3rd Hussar Regiments? Horse furniture normally takes the form of a crown or cypher or regimental logo and is invariably made of brass or nickel plate, not a dull metal. I concur that 3cm is fairly large for a lapel, although I suppose it could have been used on an overcoat. The sliding stud at rear seems of the kind used so that a badge can be fitted and secured, but easily removed and transferred to another item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 29 January , 2011 Share Posted 29 January , 2011 Well the reason it would be good to know which regiment is that the two you have suggested belonged to different divisions and experienced totally different wars. If we knew for sure, it might be possible to work out how this item came to be found or souvenired on the northern part of the Western Front. 1st Leib-Husaren were part of the Leib-Husaren Brigade of 2nd Cav Div on mobilisation, transferring to 1st Cav Div much later in the war and, I think, retaining their horses to the end when they were in the Ukraine. Husaren-Regiment von Zieten (Brandenburgisches) Nr. 3, on the other hand, provided the organic cavalry for 5th and 6th Divs (of III Corps on mobilisation). 2nd Cav Div fought the 1914 battles under Marwitz of HKK 2 up to and including Lille/Ypres, but then went east in early November 1914. 5th Div was almost exclusively a 'Western' div and 6th Div also only spent a very short period in the east. It seems clear from the ORBATs that the organic cavalry element of these divisions reduced over time, perhaps because they lost their horses for other purposes, perhaps because the troopers were needed in the dismounted role. Unfortunately, though I have extracts of both histories, these relate to the retreat from Mons, so I canot look up or give chapter and verse about it. However, if after further consideration you can ascribe this item, whatever it is exactly, to HusR 3, then I would say that, circumstantially, the historic evidence also points that way. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 29 January , 2011 Share Posted 29 January , 2011 One thing we seem to be missing is the details regading the unit the fellow who owned the box belonged to. Is that known? If we know what unit he was with whe can confirm if he was at Ypres on 1.7.17, and perhaps confirm who he was squaring off against. Of course, there is also the possibility the box itself was at Ypres on that date and the contents were from somewhere else and some other engagement, or was aquired via some other means, a possibility that was already raised. Any chance we can see the box as well? Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 29 January , 2011 Share Posted 29 January , 2011 Well the reason it would be good to know which regiment is that the two you have suggested belonged to different divisions and experienced totally different wars. If we knew for sure, it might be possible to work out how this item came to be found or souvenired on the northern part of the Western Front. 1st Leib-Husaren were part of the Leib-Husaren Brigade of 2nd Cav Div on mobilisation, transferring to 1st Cav Div much later in the war and, I think, retaining their horses to the end when they were in the Ukraine. Husaren-Regiment von Zieten (Brandenburgisches) Nr. 3, on the other hand, provided the organic cavalry for 5th and 6th Divs (of III Corps on mobilisation). 2nd Cav Div fought the 1914 battles under Marwitz of HKK 2 up to and including Lille/Ypres, but then went east in early November 1914. 5th Div was almost exclusively a 'Western' div and 6th Div also only spent a very short period in the east. It seems clear from the ORBATs that the organic cavalry element of these divisions reduced over time, perhaps because they lost their horses for other purposes, perhaps because the troopers were needed in the dismounted role. Unfortunately, though I have extracts of both histories, these relate to the retreat from Mons, so I canot look up or give chapter and verse about it. However, if after further consideration you can ascribe this item, whatever it is exactly, to HusR 3, then I would say that, circumstantially, the historic evidence also points that way. Jack Thank you Jack, that is a very clear and logical answer. It does seem likely that the man was dismounted and became a machine gunner, perhaps later in the war, although sight should not be lost that the originator of this thread has made the point that these items were found in a box belonging to a British soldier and not a German one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 29 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 29 January , 2011 I'm happy to take a photo of the box, but if I did it at the moment, using flash, the image would be dreadful. It is a silver metal box measuring 8cm x 4 cm with a depth of 2.5 cm and from the manufacturer's inscription on the base (Warmbrunn Quilitz & Co, Berlin NW) I think it may have contained some sort of precision instrument or tool. I've looked closely at the date which has been scratched on the lid and I can just make out that the owner originally wrote 1.8.17 and changed it to 31.7.17. (or v v) - the 3 showed up under magnifying glass. It's a British 7, not a European one with a cross bar. I know the owner was in the Machine Gun Corps and I believe from his MM that he was almost certainly at Ypres in September. I can't rule out that he obtained the box from elsewhere or someone else. There were some spare anti-dimming lenses for the lederschutzemaske M.1917 in the container with the metal box among a few other bits and pieces. Thus I feel sure that he amassed a little collection of trophies during his service. I know something of his history and I'll see whether I can find any other clues. Many thanks for everyone's help. I'm completely unused to looking at militaria so I'm grateful for all these insights. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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