133.R Posted 18 January , 2011 Share Posted 18 January , 2011 Hi. I got a scottish jacket modell 02. The jacket has no shoulder titles. There are holes for the shoulder titles-is it possible to find out in what regiment the jacket was worn (distance between the holes)? On the left and right arm are holes over the sergeant chevrons.Maybe the soldier was a rsm? I know it´s a pedestrian description but i hope you know what i mean and you can help me. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 18 January , 2011 Share Posted 18 January , 2011 Hi. I got a scottish jacket modell 02. The jacket has no shoulder titles. There are holes for the shoulder titles-is it possible to find out in what regiment the jacket was worn (distance between the holes)? On the left and right arm are holes over the sergeant chevrons.Maybe the soldier was a rsm? I know it´s a pedestrian description but i hope you know what i mean and you can help me. Regards The holes above the chevrons could be either for the crowns of a Staff/Colour Sergeant. The holes on the shoulder strap would fit a number of different shoulder titles so it would be virtually impossible to identify a definitive unit, although feasible to narrow it down to a few likely ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 21 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 January , 2011 I think this jacket was worn from a regiment with smal shoulder title like A&SH or KOSB. The distance between the holes is 3cm and the holes are near of the shoulder stitching.A half round title would not fit. Regards Sven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeesown Posted 21 January , 2011 Share Posted 21 January , 2011 How about the R.S.F for the Royal Scots Fusiliers ? Gary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 21 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 January , 2011 How about the R.S.F for the Royal Scots Fusiliers ? Gary. Possible. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 January , 2011 Share Posted 21 January , 2011 I think this jacket was worn from a regiment with smal shoulder title like A&SH or KOSB. The distance between the holes is 3cm and the holes are near of the shoulder stitching.A half round title would not fit. Regards Sven The holes are quite far apart for short titles like RSF, HLI, BW, SR, A&SH. There were 2 types of loop for the split pins to go through, one was round and made from thick copper wire bent and braized in place and the other was angular and made of brass plate suitably pierced with rectangular holes and then braized in place. It looks to me unusual that the holes are so close to the shoulder seam. Despite that personal reservation, the distance between holes seems to me more suitable for a longer title like GORDON, SEAFORTH, CAMERON. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 21 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 January , 2011 The holes on the other board a little bit farer from the stitching than on the left .Must be the holes not more in the middle of the board to use a SEAFORTH on it ? I have a glengarry from A&SH. It would be nice if the shoulder title from A&SH would fit and to have a scottish soldier for display . But i would not change the tunic so that both fits together. Thanks for your helpful answers Sven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 January , 2011 Share Posted 21 January , 2011 The holes on the other board a little bit farer from the stitching than on the left .Must be the holes not more in the middle of the board to use a SEAFORTH on it ? I have a glengarry from A&SH. It would be nice if the shoulder title from A&SH would fit and to have a scottish soldier for display . But i would not change the tunic so that both fits together. Thanks for your helpful answers Sven The holes on shoulder 'straps' (not boards as that would mean stiff and unbending like Russians use) are closer together for short titles of 2-4 letters and wider apart for longer titles of 5-6 (or more) letters. This is because the loops tend to be either on the first and last letter, or the second one in at each end. For an A&SH title the holes would likely be closer together than those you have on your tunic. I wore the titles you see as my avatar (at left) during my military service and issued from store those from many other units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 21 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 January , 2011 The holes on shoulder 'straps' (not boards as that would mean stiff and unbending like Russians use) are closer together for short titles of 2-4 letters and wider apart for longer titles of 5-6 (or more) letters. This is because the loops tend to be either on the first and last letter, or the second one in at each end. For an A&SH title the holes would likely be closer together than those you have on your tunic. I wore the titles you see as my avatar (at left) during my military service and issued from store those from many other units. Thank you for the answer. There's no hurry. I´ll try different shoulder titles if i can get some of this. Sorry for my mistake with flaps and straps.It´s not ever easy with the special terminology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 21 January , 2011 Share Posted 21 January , 2011 Thank you for the answer. There's no hurry. I´ll try different shoulder titles if i can get some of this. Sorry for my mistake with flaps and straps.It´s not ever easy with the special terminology. I just dug out my cut-away jacket I use for WW1 living history with original Seaforth shoulder titles on, and on both titles the lugs are about 3cm apart. So Seaforth, Gordon, or any of the shoulder titles of about that length would be a good contender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 January , 2011 Share Posted 21 January , 2011 Thank you for the answer. There's no hurry. I´ll try different shoulder titles if i can get some of this. Sorry for my mistake with flaps and straps.It´s not ever easy with the special terminology. No problem Sven, I understand how difficult it must be communicating in English with military and clothing terminology. The British term is almost always shoulder straps as boards are very stiff and unbending and often wider. Here is a shoulder title with the round type of loops. You can see how they are near the end of the title and so the holes would have to be further apart the longer the title is. Also for really long titles there is more of a curve and the letters are closer together. There is of course a maximum distance that the holes can be apart as they are restricted by the standardised width of the shoulder strap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 21 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 21 January , 2011 A good reason to increase my collection of shoulder titles. I need the shoulder titles with the small rings because the hole on the flaps ( no boards ) are small. Maybe I get a pair of matching. Regards Sven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 January , 2011 Share Posted 21 January , 2011 A good reason to increase my collection of shoulder titles. I need the shoulder titles with the small rings because the hole on the flaps ( no boards ) are small. Maybe I get a pair of matching. Regards Sven Yes, the rings are better and ideally regimental tailors used to pierce and over-stitch the holes in a circle (although there was not always time to do that). If the soldiers did it themselves they would often cut a slit rather than pierce a hole and sometimes would damage the cloth. Here is the angular type of 'loop' (not rings) as a comparison. You can see how the hole cut through for the split pin is a slot or rectangular in shape. This type was the most common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 26 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 26 January , 2011 I´ve got one title of A&SH.The distance between the small copper rings is exact 3cm and the title fits perfekt on the strap. Best regards Sven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 26 January , 2011 Share Posted 26 January , 2011 I´ve got one title of A&SH.The distance between the small copper rings is exact 3cm and the title fits perfekt on the strap. Best regards Sven Excellent news Sven, I am pleased for you! I have not measured my titles to see how far the loops are apart. Thinking about it, it may well be that all loops are 3cm apart, irrespective of the length of the title. This would make sense as it would standardise the placing of holes in straps by regimental tailors. Can any other forum member comment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 26 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 26 January , 2011 Excellent news Sven, I am pleased for you! I have not measured my titles to see how far the loops are apart. Thinking about it, it may well be that all loops are 3cm apart, irrespective of the length of the title. This would make sense as it would standardise the placing of holes in straps by regimental tailors. Can any other forum member comment? I know its another topic but in germany the hight of numbers on the strap was regulated. - a flap with one number the number was 4cm hight - a flap with two numbers the numbers was 3,7cm hight - and by a flap with three numbers the numbers was 3,5cm hight Only for example. Maybe it exist a comparable regulation for the british shoulder titels ? Regards Sven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 26 January , 2011 Share Posted 26 January , 2011 I know its another topic but in germany the hight of numbers on the strap was regulated. - a flap with one number the number was 4cm hight - a flap with two numbers the numbers was 3,7cm hight - and by a flap with three numbers the numbers was 3,5cm hight Only for example. Maybe it exist a comparable regulation for the british shoulder titels ? Regards Sven A good point Sven, that is possible. One of the forum members with access to contemporary regulations in documentary form might be able to help. Perhaps Grumpy, or Joe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 26 January , 2011 Share Posted 26 January , 2011 Sorry, loop description, spacing not specified as far as I can see ....... a sealed pattern was issued to a manufacturer who got on with reproducing it. I can say though that my almost complete Great War collection of titles is biased towards the 'flat' lozenge shape loops rather than curved, and that many of the curved ones appear to have been modified so that the loops are flattened at the end furthest from the title. I can think of a good practical reason: COMFORT! Although the soldier was supposed to pass the slings etc of his accoutrements under the shoulder straps, in practice and in a hurry this might well go by the board. The flattened ends look far less damaging to the shoulder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 26 January , 2011 Share Posted 26 January , 2011 Sorry, loop description, spacing not specified as far as I can see ....... a sealed pattern was issued to a manufacturer who got on with reproducing it. I can say though that my almost complete Great War collection of titles is biased towards the 'flat' lozenge shape loops rather than curved, and that many of the curved ones appear to have been modified so that the loops are flattened at the end furthest from the title. I can think of a good practical reason: COMFORT! Although the soldier was supposed to pass the slings etc of his accoutrements under the shoulder straps, in practice and in a hurry this might well go by the board. The flattened ends look far less damaging to the shoulder. Yes, the lozenge shaped loops were the most common and I concur with the likely reason for flattening the circular type. It would be interesting if a forum member could measure some loops on varied titles and see if they are all 3cm apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinhat47 Posted 26 January , 2011 Share Posted 26 January , 2011 I can try tonight -- I have the RSF, Seaforth and Worcestershire titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinhat47 Posted 27 January , 2011 Share Posted 27 January , 2011 All my shoulder titles have the lozenge shaped lugs on the back: RSF lugs - 24mm apart Seaforth lugs - 30mm apart Worcestershire lugs - 40mm apart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 January , 2011 Share Posted 27 January , 2011 All my shoulder titles have the lozenge shaped lugs on the back: RSF lugs - 24mm apart Seaforth lugs - 30mm apart Worcestershire lugs - 40mm apart Thanks Matt, my original assessment was correct then, the longer the title the further the loops are apart within the limit of the width of the strap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 27 January , 2011 Share Posted 27 January , 2011 Thanks Matt, my original assessment was correct then, the longer the title the further the loops are apart within the limit of the width of the strap. just done a few straights, can't swear to them all being 1914-18 mislaid Westlake: RH 15 RB 20* A&SH 25 KOSB 30 mm * loops, flattened, remainder lozenge. PS interesting: looks as if Gaunts or whoever were metric! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinhat47 Posted 28 January , 2011 Share Posted 28 January , 2011 You know, I didn't even try to measure in inches. I figured since most posters here are from the UK that I should put the measurements in millimeters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 28 January , 2011 Share Posted 28 January , 2011 Surely, as the jacket is WW1 vintage the measurements should be in inches. The UK and most of the Commonwealth hadn't thought of metrics then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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