My grandfathers bayonet

[A.A.Savery]

Hi all,

I’ve recently acquired from a family member, what I believe to be my grandfather’s bayonet.

He served for the 3rd and 9th Black Watch in Northern France for most of WW1, and only being hospitalised back in England for about six months, after being wounded in 1916. Returning in 1917 with the 8th BW and then Royal Engineers towards the end.

I’ll be delighted if the experts would check it over and tell me what they think and what all the markings represent.

Unfortunately it wasn’t kept in a scabbard and it does appear a little rusty although I’m sure that a clean and greasing would put it right. Perhaps someone could give me some advice on that.

Many thanks,

Tony

[A.A.Savery]

I suppose I should have used the flash on these, but the important markings I have brought up nicely with more light and flash.

[A.A.Savery]

Here is the first important bit.

[Andrew Upton]

Nice bayonet - this side shows the crown and ER (for Edward Rex, ie King Edward VII), the 1907 is for the pattern (it's a 1907 pattern bayonet for the Lee-Enfield rifle), the 10'09 is the date it was originally made (October 1909), so it's quite an early one, and Sanderson is the maker. It would have started out life with a hooked quillion, as seen in this recent thread:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=157499

The broad arrow on the other side is a mark of government property, the X shows it passed the bend test (basically having weight put on it, and it had to return to shape). The '15 shows it was reworked in 1915, and was very likely when it had it's hooked quillion removed (the British stopped making them with the hooks in 1913 as they snagged on things, those made with them were supposed to be dehooked). The other marks are various inspectors marks.

A change later in the war to the pattern included an oil hole in the pommel, which isn't present here. If it came in for repair/reworking after the introduction it would have had it drilled.

3 RH on the pommel will be the unit it was issued within - 3rd Battalion the Royal Highlanders, aka the Black Watch. The number might be a service number, although rack and other issue related numbers are also a possibility.

All in all a nice example of a pre-war bayonet with WW1 use/modification and most likely left service during this time to avoid the later change with the oil hole.

I this case some fine wire wool and oil carefully applied will likely bring the bare metal parts up quite nicely (not to be recommended on blued or otherwise finished surfaces though!).

(waits for the real bayonet collectors to jump in with additions and corrections)

[shippingsteel]

What more is there to say Andrew - you've done very well covering all the important stuff.

Interesting coincidence, with it being manufactured just two months earlier than the example I posted in the other thread.

In this case the armourers did an extremely neat job removing the hook quillon - you can hardly tell it was ever there. I agree it was probably done in 1915 going on the '15 stamp, and I believe in theatre by armourers of a Royal Engineers workshop. I think its an RE over 35 inspection stamp in the orange box, which I understand to indicate reworking done in the field as opposed to arsenal based repairs, etc.

A few other points of interest include the old script X bend test mark in the blue circle, which I have only ever seen on early production from the 'northern' contractors, meaning Sanderson and Mole.

Also in the black box, the Enfield based viewer has placed his inspection mark on upside down - so much for quality assurance.! And he can't even blame the pressures of wartime production on his mistake.!

With the cleaning of the bayonet, first oil it liberally with some light machine oil or even better some solvent based gun oil. Then very lightly rub the oiled areas with some extra fine steel wool to gradually remove the rust. When the oil starts to turn reddish brown rub it off with a cloth and start over. You want to be very patient, just working over a small area at a time, and not leave any scratches on the metalwork. Take off what will come away easily, then give it a wipe off with an oily cloth and be sure to store it in a dry area.

You've got a very nice piece of family history there - take good care of it.!

Cheers, S>S

[A.A.Savery]

Many thanks for the comments from Andrew and S>S for some really interesting information.

I am really delighted and it leaves me in no doubt that this must have been my grandfather’s bayonet as his first battalion was the 3rd RH before going of to France in July 1915 to fight at The Battle Of Loos.

What I am curious to know is whether it was possibly the same weapon that he took to France with the 9th RH, or whether because of the absence of an oil hole it would have left service by then. Also did that then mean he was allowed to keep it and take it home with him? In his letters he did say that he lost his rifle during the Battle of Loos.

I certainly will clean it and oil it as you have suggested S>S

Cheers,

Tony

[A.A.Savery]

Many thanks for the comments from Andrew and S>S for some really interesting information.

I am really delighted and it leaves me in no doubt that this must have been my grandfather’s bayonet as his first battalion was the 3rd RH before going of to France in July 1915 to fight at The Battle Of Loos.

What I am curious to know is whether it was possibly the same weapon that he took to France with the 9th RH, or whether because of the absence of an oil hole it would have left service by then. Also did that then mean he was allowed to keep it and take it home with him? In his letters he did say that he lost his rifle during the Battle of Loos.

I certainly will clean it and oil it as you have suggested S>S

Cheers,

Tony

Well this must be a first for me to reply to my own questions.

It suddenly occurred to me that a few years ago on this website, there had been quite extensive research into my grandfathers water damaged war records.

My grandfather's records showed that it was in 1916 after he had recovered from a wound that he joined the 3rd RH.

Tony

[Andrew Upton]

What I am curious to know is whether it was possibly the same weapon that he took to France with the 9th RH, or whether because of the absence of an oil hole it would have left service by then. Also did that then mean he was allowed to keep it and take it home with him? In his letters he did say that he lost his rifle during the Battle of Loos.

As far as I'm aware there were few if any active attempts to update the bayonets with the oilhole during the war on those grounds alone, and they would most likely only have been done when the bayonet came in for some other repair/refurbishment, and was done as part of that. If he was a careful soldier and looked after it then it was unlikely to have required anything further done to it and thus escaped the update. With the 3RH markings I would have thought it was highly likely to be his bayonet. I'm pretty certain though that it was kit that should have been returned when he left the services, so possibly he was a bit of a naughty boy in keeping it!

[shippingsteel]

As far as I'm aware there were few if any active attempts to update the bayonets with the oilhole during the war on those grounds alone, and they would most likely only have been done when the bayonet came in for some other repair/refurbishment, and was done as part of that. If he was a careful soldier and looked after it then it was unlikely to have required anything further done to it and thus escaped the update. With the 3RH markings I would have thought it was highly likely to be his bayonet. I'm pretty certain though that it was kit that should have been returned when he left the services, so possibly he was a bit of a naughty boy in keeping it!

Firstly Andrew I'm afraid I will have to borrow a pedants hat for a moment (not mentioning any names.!) and instruct you that it is NOT an "oilhole" - it is a clearance hole .!

(for removing accumulated gunk from the mortise slot to allow the proper attachment of bayonet to the rifle - especially useful in the filthy conditions of trench warfare)

I've also been thinking about the unit marking in relation to what service it may have seen - which I tend to often do when researching the history of my own bayonets.

From what I understand the 3RH was the Reserve or Depot battalion for the Black Watch regiment. These battalions were often used for Training purposes and consolidating new recruits and convalescent men returning from medical leave, prior to batches being sent forward to the active battalions at the front as reinforcements.

I have found that many of the surviving bayonets that are now seen, are marked in such a way to the Training Depot or Reserve battalions. It does make sense that bayonets that did not see much service at the frontline are more likely to have survived, although I do acknowledge that there are many examples that were bringbacks from veterans, and do show the signs of active use in the frontlines.

It is always hard to say for sure what the history of the item has been - all I'm saying is that with the 3RH marking it is possibly more likely to have been "souvenired" from the home-based Depot, rather than as a bringback from overseas service, where kit was more likely returned to 'general pools' prior to the men shipping out. Others may know more about how these things worked in practice.?

Cheers, S>S

[A.A.Savery]

Thanks again Andrew and S>S. It all seems to make good sense.

I can’t help wondering though, what excuse he would have had when he turned up in France without his bayonet. As I do not have the scabbard, I can only assume that this would have sufficed.

Other things that I have noticed with the bayonet – see post #1

That the grip is varnished – perhaps done more recently to preserve the wood?

Also there is a flat part of the grip that looks as if it may have been caused by wear. You can see this quite clearly in the photo.

How would this have come about?

Cheers,

Tony

[4thGordons]

Tony,

Any chance of a picture of the tip of the blade (last 3 or 4 inches perhaps) the only picture it is visible on is the first one and it is a long way from the camera and a possibly distorted by perspective but it looks very "rounded" to me. This was sometimes done on bayonets used for training.

Chris

[A.A.Savery]

Hi Chris,

Yes, I must say that I would have thought the blade should have a sharper point. I would estimate it to be about 1mm radius, but even that should do quite a bit of damage.

Here are the photos of the tip.

Cheers,

Tony

[Andrew Upton]

Yes, I must say that I would have thought the blade should have a sharper point. I would estimate it to be about 1mm radius, but even that should do quite a bit of damage.

Here are the photos of the tip.

Deliberately blunted ones for parade use are usually much more noticably rounded, think down to the sort of curve you get on a 5p piece and that's about right. That looks more like the sort of slightly blunt tip you get from use.

[shippingsteel]

Certainly appears the tip of the bayonet has seen plenty of 'use', with it having been roughly ground in an attempt to resharpen. You can also see where a kind of 'false edge' has been added to the upper portion of the blade point in an attempt to improve its penetration.

It should be remembered that the bayonets at the training depots were probably some of the hardest used bayonets of the war. The daily routine of training involving many bayonet fighting drills requiring the vigorous stabbing of sandbags and other rigged-up dummy objects etc. made to represent the enemy soldiers.

To my way of thinking this evidence of such extreme usage just provides more confirmation that at least for part of its history it was put to a lot of hard use at a training depot.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Thanks again Andrew and S>S. It all seems to make good sense.

I can't help wondering though, what excuse he would have had when he turned up in France without his bayonet. As I do not have the scabbard, I can only assume that this would have sufficed.

Other things that I have noticed with the bayonet see post #1

That the grip is varnished perhaps done more recently to preserve the wood?

Also there is a flat part of the grip that looks as if it may have been caused by wear. You can see this quite clearly in the photo.

How would this have come about?

Cheers,

Tony

Regarding these other questions, I believe the drafts of reinforcements being readied to join the active battalions at the front would have all been issued with new kit including rifle and bayonet, upon leaving the Training Battalion or Depot. A soldier would not necessarily have kept the same items of gear for the entire time in service, especially those which were wounded and sent back to Blighty for recuperation. Their service kit would have remained in the field.

The varnish would have been added as you suggested much more recently in an attempt to preserve the timber. The flat part on the grip appears to be where the timber has splintered and started to chip off and it has been trimmed back to make it as smooth as possible. Could also have been done just prior to having the varnish applied. Going on what you have told us there is a very good possibility that your GF used this particular bayonet at some point during the war, but whether it was in France or not is much harder to determine.

Cheers, S>S