medal ribbon id

[doogal]

Hi All,

I've attached a pic of a medal ribbon - could anyone give an id on the medal please - much appreciated

rgds

doogal

[barrieduncan]

I'd go with British War Medal

[doogal]

Hi barrieduncan,

thanks for this - I'd have thought the centre bar was too dark for the orange, and the outside colours too bright for the dark blue of the British War medal?

rgds

doogal

[SteveE]

doogal

Medal Ribbons and the effects of the different film processes etc. on the colours has been discussed at some length before on the forum, check out this thread....

Regards

Steve

[doogal]

Interesting reading!

thank-you for this and to barrieduncan

rgds

doogal

[barrieduncan]

I originally thought the BWM as I have seen other photographs where the colours look almost inverted. Looking at it in more detail, I'm wondering if the central stripe is maybe too narrow for the BWM. I'm comparing it to a studio portrait of an officer from the mid-1920s who is wearing the BWM and VM; the colours look spot on, but the width of the stripes (in particular the central stripe) is making me wonder if it might be something else. On the otherhand, it might just be the perspective that is making the central stripe look a little narrow - the ribbon is sitting at a bit of an angle. I'm sticking with BWM for now but would be interested in what others have to say.

Cheers

Barrie

[Michael Johnson]

It looks like the Africa Star to me, but we're not in the Twilight Zone...

[doogal]

I originally thought the BWM as I have seen other photographs where the colours look almost inverted. Looking at it in more detail, I'm wondering if the central stripe is maybe too narrow for the BWM. I'm comparing it to a studio portrait of an officer from the mid-1920s who is wearing the BWM and VM; the colours look spot on, but the width of the stripes (in particular the central stripe) is making me wonder if it might be something else. On the otherhand, it might just be the perspective that is making the central stripe look a little narrow - the ribbon is sitting at a bit of an angle. I'm sticking with BWM for now but would be interested in what others have to say.

Cheers

Barrie

agree with you on this - although I have to reluctantly agree that it may be the angle of the photograph.

As an aside, this soldier received the British and Victory medals (as one one expect) -- this image would suggest they were not distributed at the same time. I'd always assumed the would have been received by soldiers as a pair

[Andrew Upton]

British War Medal ribbon.

[barrieduncan]

I did wonder when I first looked at it why there wasn't a Victory Medal ribbon, but wondered if perhaps he was only entitled to the BWM. Given that he only wears the ribbon for the BWM and not the medal itself, it may be the case that he hasn't been issued with the actual medal(s), and at the time of the photo the BWM medal ribbon is all he has been given?

I was under the impression that the medals themselves were issued as a pair, but perhaps one medal was approved before the other, hence the lack of a VM ribbon? No-doubt someone else will be able to help on this matter.

Barrie

[Old Owl]

Hi All,

I've attached a pic of a medal ribbon - could anyone give an id on the medal please - much appreciated

rgds

doogal

Hi Doogal,

Having examined this photo at length I think that this could be a Special Constabulary Long Service ribbon rather than the BWM? Colours and widths of stripes seem to fit better.

Just a thought!!

Robert

[Piorun]

The VM was authorised some months after the BWM. I can't see this being a BWM. The outside bars of that ribbon were, as I recall, dark blue and black, with white inside and orange in the centre. Clearly, the outside stripe on the above is neither dark blue nor black. Antony

[Andrew Upton]

Having examined this photo at length I think that this could be a Special Constabulary Long Service ribbon rather than the BWM? Colours and widths of stripes seem to fit better.

Just a thought!!

As Steve has already mentioned, a photo taken with orthochromatic film as was commonly used around the time of WW1 will render certain light colours dark and other dark colours light, thus how they appear in a finished photograph is often quite dramically different to the colours they would actually appear in person. The ribbon in the picture is a text-book example of how the BWM is rendered by orthochromatic film, with the dark centre stripe and the light edges, eg:

http://postimage.org/image/1iwrushes/

[Andrew Upton]

And a direct comparison to the original picture - a perfect match:

http://postimage.org/image/1gv067810/

[Old Owl]

As Steve has already mentioned, a photo taken with orthochromatic film as was commonly used around the time of WW1 will render certain light colours dark and other dark colours light, thus how they appear in a finished photograph is often quite dramically different to the colours they would actually appear in person. The ribbon in the picture is a text-book example of how the BWM is rendered by orthochromatic film, with the dark centre stripe and the light edges, eg:

http://postimage.org/image/1iwrushes/

I agree this does look convincing, but still does not explain why he is wearing only the BWM--although I know some personnel qualified for the BWM and not the VM--so it could be right? I suppose that it would help if we knew the unit or wearer of said uniform/medal ribbon, but I expect that these factors are unknown?

Robert

[Andrew Upton]

I agree this does look convincing, but still does not explain why he is wearing only the BWM--although I know some personnel qualified for the BWM and not the VM--so it could be right? I suppose that it would help if we knew the unit or wearer of said uniform/medal ribbon, but I expect that these factors are unknown?

The BWM was only authorized in mid 1919, the VM not until late 1919, so plenty of time for the ribband of the first to be issued to an individual, and be photographed not wearing the second despite later being entitled to do so. It also took plenty of time to make and distribute ribband stocks for individual issue. It should also be remembered that the first issues of the ribband often took place long before the issue of the medals themselves.

[Old Owl]

The BWM was only authorized in mid 1919, the VM not until late 1919, so plenty of time for the first to be issued and not the latter.

I'm pretty sure that the BWM and VM were always issued together, but of course there may have been exceptions? I don't think that the authorisation dates had much to do with the issue dates, at least not in this instance. I believe that most BWM and VM pairs were not issued until circa 1921/22/23.

Robert

[Andrew Upton]

I'm pretty sure that the BWM and VM were always issued together, but of course there may have been exceptions? I don't think that the authorisation dates had much to do with the issue dates, at least not in this instance. I believe that most BWM and VM pairs were not issued until circa 1921/22/23.

You're mixing up the manufacture and issue of the medals themselves as opposed to the ribbands for the same to show entitlement, eg medal ribbands for the 1914 Star were being issued from early 1918 whilst the war was still in progress yet the medals were not being made or issued until after the war had ended. Issue of the ribband was also generally much swifter after a medal had been authorized than the medal issue itself. This was the same in WW2 - what is now known as the 1939-45 Star was originally known as the 1939-43 Star, and war-time photographs show the ribband for the same having been issued to those entitled whilst the war was still in progress and the actual manufacture of the medal being years away.

[Old Owl]

You're mixing up the manufacture and issue of the medals themselves as opposed to the ribbands for the same to show entitlement, eg medal ribbands for the 1914 Star were being issued from early 1918 whilst the war was still in progress yet the medals were not being made or issued until after the war had ended. Issue of the ribband was also generally much swifter after a medal had been authorized than the medal issue itself. This was the same in WW2 - what is now known as the 1939-45 Star was originally known as the 1939-43 Star, and war-time photographs show the ribband for the same having been issued to those entitled whilst the war was still in progress and the actual manufacture of the medal being years away.

I agree, there are many photos of men wearing the ribbon for the 1914 star whilst still serving in France--possibly done as some sort of moral boosting process, but I am not sure that this would have been the case for the BWM and VM, as the war was over by then, but there again---.

[SteveE]

The issue and wearing of the British War Medal Riband was authorised in early August 1919 (The Times, August 4th 1919) and a preliminary issue of 2" of riband was made, the Victory Medal Riband wasn't authorised for wear until late December 1919 (The Times, December 24th 1919) so it would be quite possible to have the BWM Riband 'up' without that of the Victory Medal for some months at the end of 1919 and into 1920 until the issue of the Victory Medal Riband was completed.

Regards

Steve

[Andrew Upton]

The issue and wearing of the British War Medal Riband was authorised in early August 1919 (The Times, August 4th 1919) and a preliminary issue of 2" of riband was made, the Victory Medal Riband wasn't authorised for wear until late December 1919 (The Times, December 24th 1919) so it would be quite possible to have the BWM Riband 'up' without that of the Victory Medal for some months at the end of 1919 and into 1920 until the issue of the Victory Medal Riband was completed.

Thanks Steve, that's the same dates I knew but had simplified in my fourth post.

[barrieduncan]

Thanks for putting up the info regarding dates of authorisation - handy stuff to know!

[Piorun]

And a direct comparison to the original picture - a perfect match:

Stunning, Andrew. Thank you for the photographic education. Yours, Antony

[Andrew Upton]

Stunning, Andrew. Thank you for the photographic education. Yours, Antony

My pleasure - given its rainbow colouring I find the VM comparison is extremely useful in determining how other medal ribbands will appear when taken with orthochromatic film.