4thGordons Posted 3 January , 2011 Share Posted 3 January , 2011 Another odditiy that I couldn't pass up. This is going to need a lot of cleaning and I have no intention of trying to fire this. It is a conversion of an Italian Vetterli Rifle, originally made in 10.35mm (I believe) to 6.5mm Carcano. I know very little about these but looking at the bolt design it must have been touch an go as to whether the design could handle the more poweful 6.5mm cartridge. I believe these conversions were done in 1914/15 and that most we given to second line and rear echelon forces - probably also colonial troops. I have only just got my hands on it so I have not had time to clean it up but I thought I would post a few pics. I would be very interested if anyone has any photographs of these rifles in wartime use with Italian troops as a realtively rapid trawl through my references has not produced any. TIA Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 3 January , 2011 Share Posted 3 January , 2011 Hi Chris I don't know what these are like in 6.5mm, but many, many years ago I owned one in 10.4mm calibre. Ammo was not of course available in the UK so I turned up a brass re-loadable case from bar. We used to pop a primer in, fill the case with blackpowder and stick a .45 lead bullet on the top and bang! It worked a treat and I still have the case somewhere. I think the rifle cost me about $10 back in 1963. Your new acquisition should fit into the collection nicely, as they were issued to some British militia units in WWI. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 3 January , 2011 Share Posted 3 January , 2011 I would be very interested if anyone has any photographs of these rifles in wartime use with Italian troops as a realtively rapid trawl through my references has not produced any. Chris How about this - I'm pretty sure the guy down the far end is shouldering one of these Vetterli conversions ...... Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadin Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 One interesting feature of these 6.5 conversions is that it will likely have gain-twist rifling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2011 One interesting feature of these 6.5 conversions is that it will likely have gain-twist rifling. Interesting - I did not know that. The bore is so dirty at the moment that I can't even examine it properly. It will probably clean up so I will look out for that. Thanks. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franzmaximilian Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Interesting! The complete denomination of your rifle is Vetterli Vitali Mod.1870/87/16. 1870 refers to the original model of the Swiss Vetterli rifle. 1887 is the year of the modification according to Vitali's project with the addition of a 4 cartridge magazine. In 1916 about 400.000 Mod. 1870/87 were modified to accomodate the now standard 6,5 mm cartridge and distributed to troops that were supposed not to be engaged in direct fighting. Interestingly the Vetterli Vitali 1870/87/16 reported two important successes. In 1915 a "Territoriale" sentinel in Ancona (a port on the Adriatic Sea) brought down an Austrian airship fireing all his ammunition while laying on his back. On 28 October 1917near Udine, after the Caporetto breakthrough, another Territoriale (or a Carbiniere according to other sources) killed the German General von Berrer, commander of the LI Army Corps who had gone a bit too forward on his car. A few Vetterli Vitali 1870/87 in the original 10,35 mm must have been used in the first lines. A few findings of spent cartridges in first line trenches have been reported from different areas of the frontline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Superb stuff, Franz, and proof, if any were needed, that the most important part of any rifle is the bloke at the back end of it. I know that TonyE used to visit Ancona regularly on business, and I'm sure that if he had known about the downing of the Austrian airship then, he would have spent more time researching it and less time eating pasta and drinking grappa ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Lies, damn lies I tell you! It was only ever Vino Rosso and Vecchio Romagna! Cheers (hic) TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 5 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Interesting! The complete denomination of your rifle is Vetterli Vitali Mod.1870/87/16. 1870 refers to the original model of the Swiss Vetterli rifle. 1887 is the year of the modification according to Vitali's project with the addition of a 4 cartridge magazine. In 1916 about 400.000 Mod. 1870/87 were modified to accomodate the now standard 6,5 mm cartridge and distributed to troops that were supposed not to be engaged in direct fighting. Interestingly the Vetterli Vitali 1870/87/16 reported two important successes. In 1915 a "Territoriale" sentinel in Ancona (a port on the Adriatic Sea) brought down an Austrian airship fireing all his ammunition while laying on his back. On 28 October 1917near Udine, after the Caporetto breakthrough, another Territoriale (or a Carbiniere according to other sources) killed the German General von Berrer, commander of the LI Army Corps who had gone a bit too forward on his car. A few Vetterli Vitali 1870/87 in the original 10,35 mm must have been used in the first lines. A few findings of spent cartridges in first line trenches have been reported from different areas of the frontline. Excellent stuff Franz - thanks! Could I ask: most of my references give the model designation as VETTERLI 1870/87/15 rather than /16 that you indicate, could you confirm which is correct? I know the conversions were made in 1916 but is the model officially the /15 or /16? Do you have access to any pictures of the rifle in service with "Territoriale" troops? Thanks Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franzmaximilian Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 .............................. Could I ask: most of my references give the model designation as VETTERLI 1870/87/15 rather than /16 that you indicate, could you confirm which is correct? I know the conversions were made in 1916 but is the model officially the /15 or /16? ................ It is quite a difficult question! I could not find (yet) any reference to an official designation. If you enter in Google "Vetterli Vitali 1870/87/16" you get links to websites which are mostly in Italian. If you enter "Vetterli Vitali 1870/87/15" results are mostly in English. One reference with 15 is to the Marina Militare (navy) Museum. See here. As for pictures of Milizia Territoriale carrying this rifle, i will look around.... Best regards Franz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franzmaximilian Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Those could be Territoriali. I'm not much expert on uniforms, but they all look aged and the rifles look like Vetterli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Agreed, and they also look like they are still in 10.4mm calibre! Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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