Scattered graves

[fotonix]

About a year ago, I came across a WW1 war grave to a member of HMS Stephen Furness at a remote church on Anglesey, north Wales. It's correctly recorded by the CWGC, but it clearly has never had any care give to it, being often overgrown by field grass and with no growing flowers.

I was wondering whether interested people can volunteer to care for a single grave like this? It would take very little by way of effort and time, and I'd be happy to do so long-term. Has anyone had any experience of this, or is everyone automatically treated as some kind of nutter for interfering?

Thanks,

J.

[dfaulder]

J,

There should be a maintenance agreement for all graves. When the CWGC returns from its holidays its "contact us" webpage should tell you how to find the group responsible for UK graves (I think in Lemington Spa), and they should be able to say who is responsible for the grave you mention. It is likely that the cemetery authorities recieve something from the CWGC to maintain the grave.

HTH

David

[fotonix]

Thanks David. It seems that someone, somewhere isn't doing what they ought, then! I guess the Church is given an allowance, but that this has slipped over the years into mere general cemetery grass cutting.

I'll chase this up as you suggest this week.

Kind regards,

John.

[judy7007]

I will be interested to hear if anything more than general cemetery grass cutting is required (so that the name of the casualty can be read). This grave in a cemetery a street away from me belongs to a WWI Australian soldier and I occasionally go over to leave some flowers or a poppy.

[Andy Wade]

As long as its not overgrown it's fine. Most of the ones I've seen in untidy cemeteries just have the undergrowth cleared around the grave in the middle of what is frankly 'a bit of a mess' in the rest of the cemetery.

Here's a particularly bad one that has now been cleared. I went to complain when I first saw it and was told that they had plans to clear the whole cemetery of undergrowth but were struggling for volunteers. They did clear it all a couple of months later. (it was a Methodist chapel graveyard).

[fotonix]

An interesting set of replies. I think there is a difference between careful tidying around a grave and simply skimming a brushcutter over it, as the pictures amply show. This is of course the winter shot in my case - in summer, it is invariably inundated by grass.

The trouble is that churches do indeed struggle for volunteers, but there is also a difficulty in someone like us lot simply taking an hour to tidy something up and maybe at most plant a small rose bush or something, as you have the CWGC, the Church, maybe the volunteer groundsman and then yourself involved in what ought to be a very simple affair! On the other hand, you don't want every Tom, Dick and Harry doing up graves in their own, possibly over-done style. A difficult one that leaves graves like this still unattended!

[SiegeGunner]

Judy's photo in post #4 resembles the scene in a number of local cemeteries near me - one or two CWGC headstones standing alone in an open expanse of grass. This usually represents an area used for common/pauper's graves, where CWGC has later erected headstones to commemorate eligible casualties known to be buried there. They are generally close to the centre of the plot, which I take to indicate that the exact burial site is not known - although the headstones are not inscribed with 'Known to be buried in this cemetery' or 'Buried near this spot' or similar. If the cemetery is well tended, these headstones inevitably stand out, with a prominence that may deceive visitors who are unaware of the context.

I have sometimes mused on whether these isolated headstones should be further 'highlighted' by cutting out a small area around the stone and planting roses/flowering plants of the kind seen in dedicated CWGC plots. I haven't really come to a firm view, but one factor that enters into my thinking is that giving further emphasis to the CWGC headstones would undoubtedly reinforce the anonymity of the others buried in such plots. I think there is already a measure of unease in many people about remembering the war dead 'for evermore' whilst progressively forgetting and even effacing the memory of the rest of their generations.

[fotonix]

Siege Gunner: yes, your very eloquently-put post highlights the complex nature of memorial. Key to this is the motivation for memorial. In my case, it's a mixture of things that relate to losses in our own family, the overwhelming experience of visiting the battlefields of the WF, and the appreciation for the terrible price paid by the common man for the failure of international politics to reach peaceful ends. Because my work involves history, I often research non-military figures from the past, and then end-up feeling I ought to do something to tidy those graves up in some small way, too! I guess if we all did the same, we'd have much better-kept churchyards! But then, none of that addresses the valid if controversial point made throughout history that whilst we remember the dead, we often forget the living.

A feeling of slight regret for having raised the issue at all now dawns on me!

[bruce]

IIRC, if the headstone is in a used cemetery, then its maintenance is the responsibility of the relevant Church. Should the churchyard become closed, then the Vestry can hand maintenance over to the local Parish or Town Council, who have to accept it. I suppose the situation may be different in Wales, with Community Councils, but that it exactly what happened here in Maghull.

The old churchyard had been closed for many years, and the Church struggling to keep up the costs of a maintenance contract, when someone ( ) suggested handing it over to the Town Council. This came as news to the Council, but it soon recognised that the vestry could do this, and it had to accept it. The Town Council now cuts grass, bluebells etc. on a regular basis.

The Town Clerk was informed ( ) that contact could be made with the CWGC to gain payment for the two double headstones in the relevant area. Some weeks later, he phoned me to ask if i thought we should have a special meeting of the Finance Committee to decide how to spend the money, as he had now received the annual cheque from the CWGC. I asked just how much this was. He giggled and informed me that it was for £3.60.

Early in November each year, I remind the Council of the need in particular to clean the graveyard up, and a number of us also go to ensure that the graves of the four men on the two headstones, plus the one local buried there, and the other three upon which the names of casualties are recorded, are cleaned up.

On November 11th, no matter which day of the week it is, we have a poppy planting. Usually (but not this last year) November 11th is after Remembrance Day, so we meet up, along with the Vicar, local school children and other members of the community, and plant out RBL poppies on the relevant graves after a short service.

I don't really know if this answers your main point, but just illustrates that it is possible to keep headtsones well-respected, so long as there is persistance and a willingness on behalf of the local Council.

Bruce

[fotonix]

Very useful comments Bruce. Either on practical or purely box-ticking grounds as seem to be in favour these days, your idea of having a brief service and involving kids is a very good one in terms of educating kids and perhaps getting some minor funding from the local Council, with whom I've worked on local history matters (hence why I was traipsing around in a churchyard in the first place!)

The person in question here was a certain 170445 W.F. Talmey, who served on the Armed Boarding Steamer, H.M.S. Stephen Furness. I'm not sure how he ended-up in a remote graveyard on Anglesey, but it's not inconceivable that he was washed-up on our shores a while after the torpedoeing of his ship between N.I. and the IoM. Certainly, something educational for local kids to get involved with.

[clive_hughes]

Hello again fotonix,

never one to pass up a chance to comment on an Anglesey casualty, the Stephen Furness was built in 1910 and seconded for war duty in December 1914.

She was on duty in the Lough Larne patrol area, west of the Isle of Man and near Belfast Lough, when torpedoed by the UB-64 on 13 December 1917. 6 officers and 93 ratings were lost in consequence, 38 of the ratings being Mercantile Marine Reservists.

WALTER FREDERICK TALMEY was born at Hurstpierpoint, Sussex on 17 December 1876. A clerk prior to engaging for Boy service with the RN in November 1892. 170445 Boy 2nd Class, then 1st Class November 1893. On 17 December 1894, aged 18, signed on for 12 years as Ordinary Seaman. Rated Able Seaman 30 August 1899, and served in an assortment of ships and shore establishments. Sub-rating was mainly as "SG" - ?Seaman Gunner. Character generally good or very good (one note of 6 days' cells in 1898!).

Engagement terminated 16 December 1906. Joined the Royal Fleet Reserve, Portsmouth Division as B.2184 on 11 May 1907. Re-enrolled 4 August 1911 as Seaman Gunner, to serve till 10 May 1917. However, he was called up on the outbreak of war and served as AB on HMS EGMONT from 9 August to 31 December 1914. Joined HMS BLENHEIM 1 January 1915 to 1 December 1916. To HMS VICTORY I base then till 28 February 1917. On 1 March 1917 he joined the STEPHEN FURNESS again as Seaman Gunner and was "Discharged Dead" being killed in action on 13 December 1917, aged 40. A War Gratuity payment was apparently made later, but no note of next of kin on the ADM / 188 service records or on the CWGC register.

His body must have been washed up in the vicinity of Llanfairynghornwy, on the northwestern tip of Anglesey, where he was then buried (the only war grave in the churchyard).

LST_164

[fotonix]

Hello LST_164

I'm very glad - an indebted - that you didn't pass the opportunity to comment on this casualty! The only Talmey I could find on the genealogy pages were indeed based in southern England, so it's difficult, given the grave's position relative to the sinking and the flow of currents in the Irish Sea, to conclude anything other than a washing up on the north coast of Anglesey.

It's a fascinating story to me, and has really prompted me to be better informed about the war at sea.

Diolch yn fawr / thanks very much,

J.

[bts1970]

your concerns are familier to many of us who research. I raised the same question some years ago now about the village graveyard. With regards to that site the local probation service carry out work but this is on an opportunity basis. I am well aware of the steps that are taken regards CWGC policy, i simply find it more pleasing to pop in every now & again myself & ensure that the graves are tidy. I also had an info sheet about the War Graves (Including site map)laminated & attached insite the church entrance to highlight the graves. The unfortunate fact is that for all the sites we will look after many more are not, we cannot expect everyone to have the same views as ourselves unfortunately as hard as that may be to accept. (As i pointed out to the local RBL, a War grave is for life not just every November!)

Bob

[bruce]

In some areas, "Community payback" can be used. Those unfortunates who are convicted and awarded a number of hours of community service need something to do during their hours, and in some places Churches have obtained their services in getting grass, brambles, etc. They are supposed to be making paybacks to the community, and so, if there is such an area that needs cutting back, why not approach a local councillor who should be able to get the area added to the rota for Community payback to work on.

Bruce

[fotonix]

I agree that community orders would be a good way to provide church maintenance, amongst many other things. Sadly, it seems the labour available is often poorly matched to the work that needs doing. My own Council has stopped using this valuable source of labour for footpath clearing, most likely because they feel it's something that involves extra effort to manage and brings added liabilities.

Personally, I'm just off to minimally tidy the surroundings of the grave and plant a poppy cross. I also like the idea of highlighting the grave at the church entrance; thanks to LST's post, I can now add pretty much the whole story to the note. This is something that, I think, those with less interest in memorial ought to keep away from, simply because it'll probably mean unsightly over-cooked adornment of the type that are often found at roadside death sites.

[fotonix]

In a minor update to the original post, this is what £16 and an hours' worth of time achieved. It looks rubbish at the moment in the dead of winter, but a few dwarf varieties of flowers have been put down as bulbs, and a dwarf rose planted on the near side, where it won't cast a shadow on the stone for those looking at or photographing it. Being a welsh quarrying area, slate chips were used to fill the old, rather decayed concrete edging, which matches the headstone and the rest of the cemetery.

Not everyone may approve, but I've tried my best, and a few people have stopped to take an interest in the Talmey story as I cleared-up. Please note that the stone is perfectly sound and erect; it only appears otherwise due to the distortion of the wide-angle lens used to take the photo.

[michaeldr]

Hard to recognise that it's the same grave plot; well done

[532SQN]

Fotonix excellent job on this plot. I am sure that there are many others in the same shape but what a great job you have done!!

We have a Veterans Plot in our local cemetery in Goderich every September my Air Cadet Squadron goes out and places Canadian Flags on all Veterans stones for the Decoration Day. There are as well Veteran stones located all over the cemetery some not well looked after so we reports this to the Towns Cemetery Board. It is history lesson for the Cadets as you can see them looking at the stones some of which are WW#1 Veterans who died in Canada after the war.

Thanks for your effort

Rick