Hate or Companion Belt

[FROGSMILE]

Yes the information on the website is not correct

Military horses troopers Surcingle's as a pattern have always been made of "leather, not cotton or wool".

I have a nice example named to 59280 Jack Parminter N.Z.M.G.C that he hand decorated on the inside with his details, it is covered in badges with pocket and a chain and snap hook for a fob watch.

Regards Jonathan

I think it's just an error in the terminology, clearly it should say girth strap rather than surcingle, but beyond that the origins and usage are correct.

[Joe Sweeney]

I think it's just an error in the terminology, clearly it should say girth strap rather than surcingle, but beyond that the origins and usage are correct.

I finally went to the supplied web link. The author clearly knows the difference between a Girth and Surcingle although I don't know if he knows what either actually looked like at the turn of the century or before as he does mention cloth surcingles in several places. So he could be mixing terms.

Use of the term money belt for stable belt for Great War era is more of a personnal preference for me as I think it more accurate reflects non Cavalry usage.

The site has some good information for collectors of actual post WWII stable belts. The origin info is a bit loose and sparse and not based on very much archival research beyond common perceptions of the origins(not that it is incorrect). It would have been nice if sources had been stated.

Joe Sweeney

[FROGSMILE]

I finally went to the supplied web link. The author clearly knows the difference between a Girth and Surcingle although I don't know if he knows what either actually looked like at the turn of the century or before as he does mention cloth surcingles in several places. So he could be mixing terms.

Use of the term money belt for stable belt for Great War era is more of a personnal preference for me as I think it more accurate reflects non Cavalry usage.

The site has some good information for collectors of actual post WWII stable belts. The origin info is a bit loose and sparse and not based on very much archival research beyond common perceptions of the origins(not that it is incorrect). It would have been nice if sources had been stated.

Joe Sweeney

Yes Joe, I think that is an accurate summary of where all this has reached. All I know for certain is that the term stable belt has been in use within the British Army for a relatively long time and not just in the cavalry, as the bulk of the army used horses that required 'stables parades', as you know. I suspect that the infantry were the last to adopt the term, but as you say it would be useful to have some archival research. Most regimental standing orders have some parts that refer to orders of dress and there will probably be mention of stable belts there, although how far back remains to be seen.

[MACRAE]

I think the term hate belt comes from old soldiers and there tales, I recall old boys from WW1 with these belts as a kid, and they always said I got this from a dead German Soldier mmmmm even then I should have seen the deliberate error, of Brittish badges among them not many Germans wearing those eh. So I am sure that Hate Myth was started by old soldiers.

Dan

[P.B.]

Happy New Year Gents

My understanding of the term "Hate Belt", as explained by various ex-servicemen I've talked to, is this....

Given the tribal nature of the British Army and the fact that cap-badge rivalry could often manifest itself by the various regiments beating seven bells out of each other, it was traditional to acquire the cap badge of a unit your unit had scrapped with. Old soldiers, having put their time in, would of course accrue a lot of badges which they would decorate a belt with to show that they were veterans of numerous inter-unit tear-ups....in other words, the "hate" part was a reference to fighting with other units, probably whilst the unlucky inhabitants of some garrison town looked on in horror...

I'd still bet that most were collected purely by soldiers building up a badge collection from neighbouring units rather than by the method above, however.

This has probably got a missive element of urban myth about it, and the real origin is almost certainly lost to time, but it does explain why a hate belt usually contains more insignia from your own side than (as you would logically think, given it's name) the enemy.

Over the years I've seen a variety of these, some obviously put together, some with a mixture of real and repro badges and some with some real rarities among the commonplace badges (I once saw one with a genuine WWI Bavarian Observer's badge pinned among common buttons, cap cockades and British badges) but I agree with the posters above who say that if you are lucky enough to find a genuine one it should never be split up, no matter how great the temptation -they're as much social and personal history as items of militaria.

All the best

Paul.

[Joe Sweeney]

This is the only belt in my collection.

It was put together by John Rice 5710 of the Irish Guards who was invalided out of service in the summer of 1916.

Interesting character who emigrated to the US before the war ended--Anniston Alabama then to Canada and finally retired in the US.

Joe Sweeney

[FROGSMILE]

This is the only belt in my collection.

It was put together by John Rice 5710 of the Irish Guards who was invalided out of service in the summer of 1916.

Interesting character who emigrated to the US before the war ended--Anniston Alabama then to Canada and finally retired in the US.

Joe Sweeney

Joe that is fascinating and the earliest example of a coloured money/stable belt that I have ever seen. Can you please confirm the colouring as precisely as you can? I am wondering if it is a first ever 'regimental pattern' worn by Irish Guards given the seemingly green colouring. They later adopted a Brigade pattern, but might perhaps, have had regimental variants at that time. With your answer I can consult with the Guards museum in London

[Joe Sweeney]

The colors are Green and White.

FYI I have the 1911 Irish Guards standing orders and pasted in amendments due to changes in Reg't orders through 1918. Although, the book is very precise on uniforms and what would be bought out of regimental funds-it is silent on these belts.

Joe Sweeney

[FROGSMILE]

The colors are Green and White.

FYI I have the 1911 Irish Guards standing orders and pasted in amendments due to changes in Reg't orders through 1918. Although, the book is very precise on uniforms and what would be bought out of regimental funds-it is silent on these belts.

Joe Sweeney

Thanks Joe, that is very helpful. I have been looking for photos of these belts being worn in WW1 and have seen several in published books but few online. It does not surprise me they there is nothing in the standing orders that you have. There has always been a rather ambivalent attitude towards money/stable belts, not least due to resentment that they had to be purchased at soldiers expense. Some regiments took/take them far more seriously than others. I have seen some regimental orders with details of 'when', 'where', 'how' to be worn and some with nothing at all, even though belts were worn in that unit. All very frustrating for a researcher!

I enclose some more recent belts, of similar colouring, but for the Green Howards (Yorkshire Regiment), Manchester Regiment and South Wales Borderers respectively.

[FROGSMILE]

Manchesters (central stripe is a golden cream)

[FROGSMILE]

South Wales Borderers

[FROGSMILE]

two canvas belts, the top one is probably the most common type I have seen, either with badges or without. The lower khaki canvas belt is similar to those shown in Grovetown's catalogue pages. It was worn by my Grandfather, Pte Dennis Hannon of the 8th Royal Berkshire Regiment. He was wounded and gassed at the Battle of Loos and was medically discharged on the 1st July 1916.

Thanks tocemma, cracking pic and I especially like the first one with a pouch for a pocket watch (complete with attachment for fob chain or strap) and another for money. These will be of great interest as early examples for the stable belt site.

[FROGSMILE]

Looking through some of my photos, I have found this picture, taken at Ramillies Barracks, Aldershot in August 1914. It shows a leather waistbelt with several badges attached to it. This is one of the few contemporary photos I have seen of a badge belt. Does anyone else have one they could post?

In the enlargement it can be seen that this old sweat Cook has a Coldstream Guards badge and on either side the brass letters C G. There is also a further badge just to the left, but I can't quite see what it is. Apologies for the grainy pic but it is a very enlarged close-up.

Regards

Tocemma

They look like KRR (60th Rifles). I can't make out the badge either, but interestingly he seems to have fashioned the Coldtream cap star into a buckle of sorts with the C and G affixed to the belt's ends.

[FROGSMILE]

Just catching up with this thread. Below are a few examples of known Great War vintage. All have been associated with uniform groupings and effects. I cannot shed any light on the 'hate' belt business. In my experience they have been described as badge or souvenir belts, and the canvas types as body or money belts. As has already been suggested the 'hate' title is an imported term I would say and in relatively recent useage in the UK.

A badge belt with a strong showing of Irish badges.

It's interesting that the leather belt from the 1903 Bandolier Equipment seems by far the most common to be used for this purpose.

[Piorun]

Use of the term money belt for stable belt for Great War era is more of a personnal preference for me as I think it more accurate reflects non Cavalry usage.

Joe Sweeney

With respect, Joe, it was NEVER called a money belt in the Army. It was a stable belt. And, as others have posted, its origin derives from the days when every military unit was horsed to some degree - even if it was only to pull the baggage train. Great thread, regardless. Regards, Antony

[max7474]

The badge with the motto, Soyes Ferme, is that of the New Zealand Rifle Brigade. The belt contains a mixture of cap badges, shoulder titles, collar badges and assorted buttons. Amongst the obvious ones are, Cap badges: Lancashire Fusiliers, Highland Light Infantry. King's Shropshire Light Infantry. Shoulder titles, Durham Light Infantry, Somerset Light Infantry. Buttons, USA general service, Australian Military Forces, Royal Marines. Collar badges, Canada, USA and a Fusiliers collar badge possibly Lancashire Fusiliers. I have no idea about the EA? in a laurel wreath collar badges at either end.

An old thread but I can confirm that the EA badge is a sporran badge from Edinburgh Academy OTC. The school archivist has provided a photo of it in use with the school cadets.