hazie Posted 20 December , 2010 Share Posted 20 December , 2010 I'm looking for advice on researching my ancestor John Dunn. Family think he was in the Lancashire Fusiliers. A photo is attached and having studied his cap on the table and compared this to other peoples old photos of Lancashire Fusilier men, it does indeed appear to be this regimental badge on his cap. John Dunn was born 1864, so age 50 when he joined up in anger "to teach the Germans a lesson" sometime after hearing his son was a POW having been captured by the Germans at the battle of Le Cateau 26 Aug 1914. Family story says he was even more annoyed to find he never saw any Germans only Turks - suggesting he was at Gallipoli. I have not found any service records for him, either they were amongst those destroyed or perhaps because of his age on enlisting he was not entitled to pension. There were however 4 possible Medal Cards for John Dunn, Lancashire Fusiliers: Regt. No: 17958 - I think unlikely because he had no medals which suggests he was not overseas and he discharged 18/12/15 due to sickness. Regt. No: 648309 This man enlisted 03/09/14 & was discharged 25/09/18 Medals: Victory: Y British: Y Star: Y. My understanding is Star medal means he was in France/Flanders, So this one also unlikely. Regt. No: 4316 This man killed in action 12 May 1917 Regt. No: 281564 Medals: Victory: Y British: Y Star: N - this is the only one left. There is no other detail on the card except Medal Roll: H/1/101B33 Page: 6907 I cannot get to National Archives to view the Medal Roll H/1/101B33 Page: 6907 which I believe may reveal the battalion, so have I have sent off a request for an estimate to download. If I find out this man's battalion, I may then establish if they were in Galliopoli which would increase chances that Regt. No: 281564 is my John Dunn. While I await the response from National Archives, I wonder whether anyone knows what sort of role an older soldier may have played, would he have some non-fighting role and what does the sleeve band on his left arm signify? Any advice or tips would be gratefully received. Hazie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazie Posted 20 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2010 I thought I attached the photo of John Dunn in uniform with cap on table but must have done something wrong. 2nd attempt: attach photo Hazie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercian Volunteer Posted 20 December , 2010 Share Posted 20 December , 2010 Yuo could try looking at the "Absent Voters Lists" for 1918. They are a goldmine of information for researching soldier details. He may be listed. This would show his regiment and where he was living in late 1918. Do you know the nearest town/city he was living in? Is so then check at the main library to see if they still exist. Best of luck, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 20 December , 2010 Share Posted 20 December , 2010 The entitlement to the 1914/14 star was not just for France but overseas service in general so he might have earned it for Middle East service. The badge is certainly a LF's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 20 December , 2010 Share Posted 20 December , 2010 There is possibly a letter 'R' showing on that band [or brassard?], which could be half of 'RP', or regimental policeman. Better eyes, please! D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 20 December , 2010 Share Posted 20 December , 2010 I agree it is likely to be either RP, or RMP (Regimental Police, or Regimental Military Police - both versions were used by infantry battalions on arm bands, depending on regimental standing orders). A typical job for a 'steady' old soldier, or in this case, 'older' soldier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepoy Posted 21 December , 2010 Share Posted 21 December , 2010 "Regt. No: 648309 This man enlisted 03/09/14 & was discharged 25/09/18 Medals: Victory: Y British: Y Star: Y. My understanding is Star medal means he was in France/Flanders, So this one also unlikely" It could be this man because the Medal card shows that he landed in Egypt (3) on 5th November, 1914 whilst serving as 2479 Pte Lancashire Fusiliers, which may mean he was serving in one of the Territorial Battalions LF who landed in Egypt during September, 1914 and went on to serve at Gallipoli. This man was later transferred to the Labour Corps, but at this time of night I cannot think what L.C.N.C. stands for. The Medal Card for 7967 Pte/Cpl John W Dunn, Lancashire Fusiliers also shows he is a possibility as he landed at Gallipoli on 5th May, 1915 (This is when the LFus TF Bns landed). The enlistment date for the 2479/648309 Pte Dunn may be a little too quick to get the report back to him that his son had been captured on the 26/08/14. Have the papers for the PoW survived because they may give some info about his father??? Sorry have run out of time - I should be in bed! Goodnight Sepoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 December , 2010 Share Posted 21 December , 2010 "Regt. No: 648309 This man enlisted 03/09/14 & was discharged 25/09/18 Medals: Victory: Y British: Y Star: Y. My understanding is Star medal means he was in France/Flanders, So this one also unlikely" It could be this man because the Medal card shows that he landed in Egypt (3) on 5th November, 1914 whilst serving as 2479 Pte Lancashire Fusiliers, which may mean he was serving in one of the Territorial Battalions LF who landed in Egypt during September, 1914 and went on to serve at Gallipoli. This man was later transferred to the Labour Corps, but at this time of night I cannot think what L.C.N.C. stands for. The Medal Card for 7967 Pte/Cpl John W Dunn, Lancashire Fusiliers also shows he is a possibility as he landed at Gallipoli on 5th May, 1915 (This is when the LFus TF Bns landed). Sepoy I think it 'might' be Labour Corps Native Contingent. It was a common unit for older soldiers to serve in and supervise native labour. It would fit in with his earlier role if he was indeed a regimental policeman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazie Posted 21 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 21 December , 2010 Thank you for all your responses: Steve - I tried the Absent Voters Lists. My man lived in Wigan at the time and Preston records have told me that there are no Absent Voters Lists for Wigan. max7474 - thank you for taking the time to respond, it is very re-assuring to know that someone else thinks the cap badge is Lancashire Fusiliers, I can see there is a good deal of expertise in this forum. As I am wrong about the 1914/15 star, it means regt. no: 648309 is back in the frame - I didn't mention before but that one is Labour Corps Northern Command ex Lancashire Fusiliers. I am not entirely sure what that is or if it would still be the Lancs Fusilier cap badge, it did cross my mind as to whether an older man might be more likely to go into a "Labour Corps" - he was a coal miner, very small but strong and determined. Daggers & Frogsmile - I must confess with my complete lack of expertise, I thought it might be a number 2 or 7, It could be RP or RMP. The family tale only says that he said the worst part of his "war time" was the cold - so cold many soldiers suffered from frost bite. They were always short of food and often only had snow balls for breakfast. He must have been in Gallipoli over the winter months - no mention of him being a Military Policeman - may have been forgotten over time but perhaps likely to have been remembered. Many thanks, it all helps. Hazie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazie Posted 21 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 21 December , 2010 Hello Sepoy & Frogsmile, My last response crossed with your latest - I am a bit slow on the posting. L.C.N.C. = Labour Corps Northern Command - I got that from the catalogue listing the medal card on National Archives. I discounted John W Dunn because to the best of family knowledge he never had a middle name nor did any of his siblings. I have done some research on son James and know what POW camp he was in - I have not as yet tracked any records. I made a note about International Committee of the Red Cross re POW records but have not looked into how to go about it yet. Not sure what the POW records contain - son James was in Sennelager Camp. I will certainly follow that up. I quite agree it is now late and time for bed. I will put the cards back on table tomorrow and have another look. Thanks Gents Hazie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 December , 2010 Share Posted 21 December , 2010 Thank you for all your responses: no mention of him being a Military Policeman - may have been forgotten over time but perhaps likely to have been remembered. Many thanks, it all helps. Hazie Don't mix up RP or RMP with the then CMP, they are entirely different things. He would have been just a domestic policeman, responsible for policing internal "good order and miltary discipline" under the command of the battalion Provost Sergeant and the auspices of the battalion Adjutant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 19 January , 2011 Share Posted 19 January , 2011 Any further in this Hazie? Was he a pre war TF or regular soldier? If not 2479 is probably unlikley as it would have been a stretch to have him disembarking in Egypt by November 1914. Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 20 January , 2011 Share Posted 20 January , 2011 max7474 - thank you for taking the time to respond, it is very re-assuring to know that someone else thinks the cap badge is Lancashire Fusiliers, I can see there is a good deal of expertise in this forum. As I am wrong about the 1914/15 star, it means regt. no: 648309 is back in the frame - I didn't mention before but that one is Labour Corps Northern Command ex Lancashire Fusiliers. I am not entirely sure what that is or if it would still be the Lancs Fusilier cap badge, it did cross my mind as to whether an older man might be more likely to go into a "Labour Corps" - he was a coal miner, very small but strong and determined. Many thanks, it all helps. Hazie Although the Lancashire Fusiliers were Western Command, it's not impossible that he could have been transferred to the Labour Corps Northern Command, whose H.Q. was based at Ripon, North Yorks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazie Posted 23 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 23 February , 2011 I am sorry for the absence of response on my part. A family illness has meant my travelling some distance to assist and I had to put everything but essentials on hold for a time. An enquiry to owner of website http://www.labourcorps.co.uk/ about Labour Corps Northern Command produced this response: "Labour Corps Northern Command was located in the U.K. In each of the U.K. Command areas there was a Labour Corps Centre that men were sent to on enlistment or when they were transferred to the Labour Corps prior to discharge as no longer fit enough to serve in the army. The John Dunn with a Labour Corps number of 648309 would have been transferred from the Lancashire Fusiliers around October 1918 and was almost certainly in the category of men returned to the UK as no longer fit for service overseas". Medal Roll H/1/101B33 John Dunn Regt. No: 2816564 – National Archives The medal Roll image contains 6 men of the Lancashire Fusiliers all of either 1/7th or 2/7th Battalions. Pte. John Dunn Regt. No: 2816564 is shown as 1/7th Lan Fus. There is a column for Theatres of War, in first column of that are some initials - could be O&P or OwP or OmP. There is no other information. I wondered whether to post the image on site but having obtained this from National Archives I suspect this would contravene some rules. Perhaps listing the other 5 men in case it helps someone else would possibly also be a problem. 1/7th Battalion August 1914 : in Salford. Part of Lancashire Fusiliers Brigade, East Lancashire Division. Record same as 1/5th Bn: 25 September 1914 : landed in Egypt. 5 May 1915 : landed on Gallipoli. 26 May 1915 : formation became 125th Brigade, 42nd (East Lancashire) Division. 28 December 1915 : landed on Mudros and proceeded to Egypt. 27 February 1917 : landed Marseilles and proceeded to the Western Front. The waters have been muddied further because I sent off for a marriage certificate for John Dunn's son who married in Nov 1915 and found the father John Dunn was shown as a Private in Kings Liverpool Regiment. The son, was shown as a Private in Royal field Artilliary at Aldershot – that was 3rd different regiment I had found for him. It was agreed the photo I originally posted showed John Dunn's cap badge as Lancashire Fusiliers, so he had evidently served in at least two regiments. The photo was taken mid Summer as the flowers on the table are probably ox eye daisies. By Nov 1915 he is found shown on son's marriage certificate as in Kings Liverpool Regiment. John Dunn's 14th child was born in March 1914. A photo postcard of that child aged about 3yrs was sent to John Dunn (about 1917). The postcard inscription reads "To Dada, from Agnes with best love and good luck, wish a speedy return. XXXXX". Before the family illness caused me suspend my research, I had got as far as searching on ancestry for army records for a John Dunn in Kings Liverpool Regt. I spent some time on that but nothing found. Searching medal cards on Nat archives reveals a few John Dunn's in Liverpool Regiment but is that same as Kings Liverpool Regiment? I am not sure which came first Lancashire Fusiliers or Kings Liverpool. For the son I found in 3 regiments - he was discharged from one due to poor conduct and one as unfit, but still seems to have got in again for a 3rd time. I am thinking that the marriage certificate showing John Dunn as Kings Liverpool Rgt. Nov 1915 perhaps now rules out the Pte Lancashire Fusiliers No: 2479 who transferred to Labour Corps Regt. No: 648309. I'm open to other views on that. That's an update on where I am at. The more information I gather, the less clear it gets! If anyone has any brainwaves, I'm open to suggestions. Regards Hazie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 23 February , 2011 Share Posted 23 February , 2011 A brief answer to one of your queries: yes, the 'The King's (Liverpool Regiment)' was the formal title during the Great War but it was often shortened to 'Liverpool R', or 'King's'. D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 26 December , 2012 Share Posted 26 December , 2012 Hi Hazie, Just looked at this one again. Can you do a close up of the badge on his right shoulder? Best resolution possible? I appears to be a Territorial title (3 x levels). This might point to which battalion he was with. Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 28 December , 2012 Share Posted 28 December , 2012 I thought I attached the photo of John Dunn in uniform with cap on table but must have done something wrong. 2nd attempt: attach photo Hazie The cap on the table definitely bears a cap badge of the Lancashire Fusiliers and not the King's (Liverpool) Regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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