Captain Dave Posted 19 December , 2010 Share Posted 19 December , 2010 I found a .303 cartridge at a historical site today, on the back it has inscribed CAC 915 VI Any thoughts as to age, where it was made etc? Thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 19 December , 2010 Share Posted 19 December , 2010 Are you sure it is not 1915? CAC = Colonial Ammunition Company (confusingly there are two one at Footscray in Australia and on in NZ) as this does not appear to have a month with the date I suspect this is a NZ round. VI = MkVI ball Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 19 December , 2010 Share Posted 19 December , 2010 http://wiki.waffen-online.de/index.php/.303_British Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 19 December , 2010 Share Posted 19 December , 2010 I believe it is dated "9 15" with a space between, so it was made in September 1915 at the Australian factory at Footscray. It is a Mark VI ball and had a 215 grain round nosed bullet. It was introduced in 1904 and was replaced in British service by the pointed 174 grain Mark VII in 1911. However, manufacture continued for some years for the Territorial and colonial forces. New Zealand rounds did not include the month, nor did they use a four digit date. The four digit date was introduced on British .303 inch for Air Service Red Label ammunition in 1916. Australia continued to make Mark VI ammunition until February 1918, and NZ changed over at about the same time, although I cannot give a definite month. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 19 December , 2010 Share Posted 19 December , 2010 I believe it is dated "9 15" with a space between, so it was made in September 1915 at the Australian factory at Footscray. It is a Mark VI ball and had a 215 grain round nosed bullet. It was introduced in 1904 and was replaced in British service by the pointed 174 grain Mark VII in 1911. However, manufacture continued for some years for the Territorial and colonial forces. New Zealand rounds did not include the month, nor did they use a four digit date. The four digit date was introduced on British .303 inch for Air Service Red Label ammunition in 1916. Australia continued to make Mark VI ammunition until February 1918, and NZ changed over at about the same time, although I cannot give a definite month. Regards TonyE Drat! I knew there was something about that date thing.... read it in some book or other.... Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59165 Posted 19 December , 2010 Share Posted 19 December , 2010 It wouldn't be a signed book would it,Chris ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 19 December , 2010 Share Posted 19 December , 2010 Some privileged people have a rare unsigned one.... Cheers TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Dave Posted 22 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 22 December , 2010 Thank you gentlemen. The cartridge was found in Jordan the other day. How it got there is beyond me, but its nice to get a WW1 find for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59165 Posted 22 December , 2010 Share Posted 22 December , 2010 The cartridge was found in Jordan the other day. How it got there is beyond me, Does Peter André have an alibi ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 23 December , 2010 Share Posted 23 December , 2010 I don't think you should go there, Dave...I certainly wouldn't! Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 23 December , 2010 Share Posted 23 December , 2010 Thank you gentlemen. The cartridge was found in Jordan the other day. How it got there is beyond me, but its nice to get a WW1 find for free. Australian troops were certainly fighting in the Middle East during the war, the Light Horse Regiments in particular were wide ranging in that area and won some significant victories against the Turks, including the famous cavalry charge at Beersheba. Cartridge may have been one that was left behind in their travels - fell off the back of a camel perhaps.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Dave Posted 30 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 30 January , 2011 Well I found another round the other day. I was visiting Chunuk Bair at Gallipoli and about 10 meters from the summit of the hill saw a .303 cartridge sitting on the surface of the soil. Interestingly enough it was violently smashed in half but unfired. The guide pulled all of the explosive material out (I didnt know that the explosive material was stringy, not powder based) then lit it with a lighter causing the material to burn up rapidly. We knocked out the primer and using the information posted on this thread previously, managed to ID it as a NZ round as the base had CAC IV stamped into the back. So there we go. A bit of NZ history from a NZ battlefield to take back to NZ. I also found the back of a brass press stud from a webbing pouch. The guide said that each time it rains, more stuff is exposed on the surface. Anyway, thanks for the info. It was very valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 30 January , 2011 Share Posted 30 January , 2011 A good story - you've done well. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 30 January , 2011 Share Posted 30 January , 2011 Well I found another round the other day. I was visiting Chunuk Bair at Gallipoli and about 10 meters from the summit of the hill saw a .303 cartridge sitting on the surface of the soil. Interestingly enough it was violently smashed in half but unfired. The guide pulled all of the explosive material out (I didnt know that the explosive material was stringy, not powder based) then lit it with a lighter causing the material to burn up rapidly. We knocked out the primer and using the information posted on this thread previously, managed to ID it as a NZ round as the base had CAC IV stamped into the back. So there we go. A bit of NZ history from a NZ battlefield to take back to NZ. I also found the back of a brass press stud from a webbing pouch. The guide said that each time it rains, more stuff is exposed on the surface. Anyway, thanks for the info. It was very valuable. Assuming that it is in fact "CAC IV" and not "CAC VI" then it is one of the hollow pointed .303 inch rounds that were banned by the St.Petersburg Declaration and Hague Convention. The Mark IV was introduced to service in February 1898 and replaced by the Mark II after hollow pointed bullets were banned. I do not know when manufacture ceased in New Zealand, but it should not have been at Gallipoli! The picture shows an Indian Dum Dum Mark II special on the left and a Mark IV on the right. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Dave Posted 30 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 30 January , 2011 Whoops, it was indeed a VI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 30 January , 2011 Share Posted 30 January , 2011 Much more as it should be! Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Dave Posted 2 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 2 February , 2011 By any chance are you able to post a shot of a Mk VI as well? I'm trying to work out what the projectiles I found were from. They are the size I would expect from a .303, but are blunt nosed and not boat tailed. I assumed they were the rounds for the Lee Metfords carried by the NZ troops on Gallipoli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 2 February , 2011 Share Posted 2 February , 2011 Certainly. Here is a comparison between the Mark VI and the Mark VII. If you need a picture of a Mark VI out of the case I can post one. I think that the New Zealanders at Gallipoli would have been using Lee-Enfield Mark I or I* rifles. The Lee-Metford was designed to fire the early blackpowder Marks of .303 inch ammunition and was not happy firing the Cordite loaded later marks, suffering from rapid bore erosion. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Dave Posted 2 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 2 February , 2011 So the Lee Enfield I and I* fired the blunt nosed ammunition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 2 February , 2011 Share Posted 2 February , 2011 So the Lee Enfield I and I* fired the blunt nosed ammunition? Originally yes, and the very earliest SMLEs did too although the vast majority of these were modified (resighted and magazine shape altered) for the MkVII. HV (High Velocity) stamped on the barrel of the rifle (just aft of the rear sight) is indicative of this modification. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 2 February , 2011 Share Posted 2 February , 2011 Possibly Captain Dave was making light of Tony's photo, which my bowser at least cuts off the bullet tips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 2 February , 2011 Share Posted 2 February , 2011 Possibly Captain Dave was making light of Tony's photo, which my bowser at least cuts off the bullet tips Hmmm they display fine (and completely) for me - and one (MkVI) is indeed blunt.... but possibly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 2 February , 2011 Share Posted 2 February , 2011 Hopefully the full picture shows for you, Centurion. After all, I have never known you to be blunt! Cheers TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 2 February , 2011 Share Posted 2 February , 2011 Hopefully the full picture shows for you, Centurion. After all, I have never known you to be blunt! Cheers TonyE No picture showing. I'musing safari on I-pad at the moment Hence the typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Dave Posted 3 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2011 No, I wasn't taking the wizz. I could see the whole picture of each round and the upper round certainly has a blunt nosed projectile. I just wanted to confirm what I had was an early .303 round (so probably by default a NZ round) as opposed to a Mauser round. There was a small village Museum we went to in the Cape Helles area that had piles of Mauser rounds that were sharp tipped and boat tailed, but its always good to tap the forum knowledge to make sure. Did any of the British troops on Gallipoli also carry the early .303's, or were they all equiped with the Mk III? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now