New Acquisition

[4thGordons]

A bit out of my usual area but....

As you can see rather battered and with some considerable pitting on the bolt (barrel looks OK but chamber is rough) I don't intend to shoot this although the chap I got it from said he had fired it. There is a crack in the stock just forward of the reinforcing bolt. On the up side all the numbers I have found (including sight, several screws, bolt, safety etc match) and there are some interesting proof marks and a unit mark I am still attempting to work out. I am not sure if the sling is original but it has clearly been on the carbine for a long time.

Interestingly (given the thread below) the butt plate is marked in a similar fashion.

Maker (VC SCHILLING SUHL) and Date (1891), also modifide for the S-patrone

Chris

[4thGordons]

Detail of the action

Here is the unit marking: Any suggestions? appears to be E P(R?)I XIV 10

and the markings on the buttplate as discussed in THIS THREAD.

Chris

[59165]

Chris.

PM Dave crooneart as this is his era for Germanic stuff.

Dave.

[shippingsteel]

So .... is that the carbine version of the Kommissions Gewehr, were they originally made for the Kavallerie.?

In regards the unit marking, it looks to be E.P.1.XIV.10 and being such an early manufacture they may have used a different marking pattern to the GW period weapons.

However from what I can gather the first letters should be Eisenbahn Pionier which simply translates into Railway Engineers, with the numbers indicating which unit it belonged.

Quite possibly issued as an obsolescent weapon to the rear echelon troops during the war - you wouldn't expect railway troops to have been issued these from new.?

Interesting bit of gear .... would look extremely nice on display alongside a refurbished LE Carbine ....

Cheers, S>S

EDIT. The only time I have seen the Roman numerals (ie.XIV) is when it indicates the relevant Army Corps, so perhaps these Engineers were unattached Army Troops.?

[gew98]

The sling is most definately not german nor period... it almost looks swedish.

I'm not making sense of eisenbahn pioneer.... the railway troops I don't think ever used 'pioneer' in any of their unit markings I have ever seen. I'm thinking a ersatz Pioneer batt or kompagnie of the 14th Armee Korps.

[shippingsteel]

I'm not making sense of eisenbahn pioneer.... the railway troops I don't think ever used 'pioneer' in any of their unit markings I have ever seen.

OK so maybe we are both wrong. Perhaps it isn't a P after all but a letter R, which would then make it E.R.1.XIV.10 , which would probably make more sense.

So that would translate into Eisenbahn-Regt. Nr.1 XIV Armee Korps. Waffe Nr.10

All I know is that the letter E at the start of the string usually means Eisenbahn (Railway) while if found in the middle more likely means Ersatz (Replacement) as in Batallion or Kompagnie.

Cheers, S>S

[SiegeGunner]

All I know is that the letter E at the start of the string usually means Eisenbahn (Railway) while if found in the middle more likely means Ersatz (Replacement) as in Batallion or Kompagnie.

S>S, could you please give an example with E = Ersatz 'in the middle'.

Like gew98 I think it is most likely to be Ersatz-Pionier-Bataillon/Kompagnie, XIV. Armee-Korps.

[shippingsteel]

S>S, could you please give an example with E = Ersatz 'in the middle'.

Sure, no problems ....

How about 12. R. E. 3. 215 for an example

My interpretation for this is 12. Infanterie-Regt., Ersatz-Bataillon, 3. Kompanie, Waffe Nr. 215

You see the format is Regiment - Battalion - Company - Number. You can have ersatz-bataillon and ersatz-kompanie but I have never seen an ersatz-regt.

Furthermore the Pioneer battalions I have seen have the Batt. number first, such as ( 4. P. 1. 126 ) or even ( 2. P. E. 1. 94 )

Welcome your thoughts ....

EDIT. Here is a LINK which you may find of interest in regard the prevalence of said 'Eisenbahn' troops

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

Interesting bit of gear .... would look extremely nice on display alongside a refurbished LE Carbine ....

Cheers, S>S

Thanks for all the thoughts on the unit.

S>S - actually I was going to display it alongside this....which is the other half of my wandering off the Lee Enfield path and arrived today.

This is a 1908 Kar98 made by Erfurt (at least the reciever/barrel/stock are) apart from the reciever barrel and stock the numbered parts do not match at all on this. There are also a fairly large number of repairs (period) in the stock which makes me wonder if it is a salvaged weapon (butt plate is stamped 5 Z inspection stamp in the same format as shown above.

I cannot find any unit markings on this except perhaps 11.U. ?F.56 on the tang of the butt-plate.

Chris

[4thGordons]

Unit Mark:

11.U. 'F.56

(11th Uhlans?)

Butt plate stamping

[shippingsteel]

Certainly a definite pattern emerging with those butt plate stampings, and they involve inspection/approval frakturs, so I would say that the repair workshop theory is close on the money.

As for the other marking you would expect it refers to the 11. Ulanen-Regt., but as it isn't in the normal "long string" unit format, I would suggest possibly more of a depot marking (for training perhaps.?)

EDIT. Oh yeah, nice detailed pics of the receiver and bayonet lug. The hook attachment is for stacking/racking purposes, right.?

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

S>S

Yes, the long bar is for stacking (at least that is my assumption)

There are some interesting differences between this and my other Kar 98a - working on a comparison pic

I'm currently without a bayonet to accompany this one.

Assuming this is an Uhlan stamp (I wondered about the format, I didn't know if cavalry units numbered by "troops" or some such?) - suggestions as to which TYPE of bayonet might go best with this?

or ignoring the stamp - suggestions of the best type to partner with it? I know what fits...just wondering if you have a sense of what was used most (I am out of my depth here)

Chris

[shippingsteel]

Given it is early dated (ie.1908) and also the carbine version, I would suggest the S84/98 model 'knife' bayonet with the flashguard attachment (the shortened muzzle on these really made a mess of the early bayonets before the flashguards were fitted)

If you absolutely wanted to stay tight with the Uhlan connection, then you may want to consider the sawback version (HERE) which I believe was the standard issue for the cavalry troops. I have often seen these unit marked with the U stamping.

Alternatively a cheaper solution would be the sawback removed bayonet, or even fallback to the plain blade as a total copout .....

The butcher or quillback would also be permissable but for a Karibiner i really think the knife bayonet is the correct match.

Cheers, S>S

[gew98]

This is a Uhlan marking on the 98a buttplate. This is how unit markings were applied to the 98a - on the buttplate tang in that fashion. Post WW1 police markings are often found there , but the post WW1 military applied their markings when they did on the takedown discs in the buttstock.

The depot repair/salvage markings are not theory...Storz's research confirmed them as such.

[gew98]

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?201165-WTS-Kar-88-Llama-Especial-38-super

Thought one of yu fellas may be interested in this Bavarian Uhlan marked Kar88... or at least look at the pics of it.

[4thGordons]

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?201165-WTS-Kar-88-Llama-Especial-38-super

Thought one of yu fellas may be interested in this Bavarian Uhlan marked Kar88... or at least look at the pics of it.

Thanks - I have not seen markings on the foresight before - is that common?

Nice pictures but not much information (ie is it matching?)

Chris

[Tinhat47]

Interesting! I saw a rifle exactly like the one in the first post in a little antique shop in Sevierville, Tennessee about two years ago. All the tag said was "Old German rifle." It wasn't expensive either. Pity, I'd have snagged it if I knew it was something worth having. It was gone the last time I visited.

[gew98]

Thanks - I have not seen markings on the foresight before - is that common?

Nice pictures but not much information (ie is it matching?)

Chris

The Kar88 and gew91's were unit marked on their nosecaps...that's SOP for them. Not being a fan of kar88's I never kept one long enough to really care for them , though I have a gew91 I won't soon part with.

The peice is advertised as matching except the broken safety ( which is an identcal part as found on the gew88 and so easily found ). The fellow asks $750 OBO. I think this about a $500 to absolute top $600 peice. It would be worth it at my estimations for a clean honest example.

[4thGordons]

The Kar88 and gew91's were unit marked on their nosecaps...that's SOP for them. Not being a fan of kar88's I never kept one long enough to really care for them , though I have a gew91 I won't soon part with.

The peice is advertised as matching except the broken safety ( which is an identcal part as found on the gew88 and so easily found ). The fellow asks $750 OBO. I think this about a $500 to absolute top $600 peice. It would be worth it at my estimations for a clean honest example.

I agree on the price. $750 is twice what I paid for my example which is all matching but has a minor crack in the stock.

My example us unit marked on the band, nosecap is plain.

My main interest is Enfields but I have been working on a collection of representative long arms - which has now expanded to include carbines!

Chris

[David B]

I don't have a huge amount of knowledge of rifles (pacificist ) but I cannot understand why the rifle was made with a very small bolt lever ? I mean compared with an SMLE you don't

have much to hang on to when reloading except a little tab or something like that. How about an explanation from you experts.

Cheers

[shippingsteel]

I don't have a huge amount of knowledge of rifles (pacificist ) but I cannot understand why the rifle was made with a very small bolt lever ? I mean compared with an SMLE you don't

have much to hang on to when reloading except a little tab or something like that. How about an explanation from you experts.

Cheers

The Kar88 was a cavalry carbine and it was made to slot into gun buckets mounted on the saddle. Hence the snub nose profile and the small flat bolt lever.

(Horses don't like those pointy bits sticking into them, you know.!)

PS. And just remember - this is an explanation from a non-expert ....

Cheers, S>S

[David B]

Thank you S>S you are expert enough for me.

Cheers

[4thGordons]

What he said!

Prior to the introduction of the SMLE there was the MLE (Magazine Lee Efield) aka "Long" Lee-enfield and several versions of cavalry carbine, they did something similar (although less dramatic) to the bolt of those: see below and compare with an MLE/SMLE bolt.

Chris

[bob lembke]

S>S;

Let me lay out something that may help you puzzle out unit markings; the previous discussion does not make it clear if you know the following. It is a convention which was not followed 100%, but was generally followed, and may help you puzzle out some unit markings.

Generally, unit numbers alternated between Arabic and Roman, and this was extended a lot further than some people realize. Let me lay it out.

Gruppe/Trupp = Roman (?)

Korporalschaft = Arabic (?)

Zug = Roman? (not sure from memory without an example, such as from a postcard, before me.)

Kompagnie = Arabic

Bataillon = Roman

Regiment = Arabic

Brigade = Roman (may not be always, and of course a lot less important anfter the switch from square to triangular divisions 1915/16.)

Division = Arabic

Armeekorps = Roman

Armee = Arabic

It's been several years since I looked at photos of, for example, a Korporalschaft in a unit photo with the little slate with the unit self-identifying, so, from memory (and at 5:30 AM), I am not sure at this moment. I am sure of the convention being generally used between Kompagnie and Armee. (Were weapon unit markings made for units below Kompagnie?)

Also, I have a collection of about 40 Prussian Ranglisten, which as you probably know were issued annually, so if you give me a year or approximate year I can tell you if there actually was an active duty unit as hypothesized. I suspect that some of the proposed units hypothesized did not exist, at least at that time. (After 1914 all bets are off; first of all the Ranglisten were not issued {there are other documents that might help}, and a great number of new kinds of units, some temporary, were being be created rapidly.)

Give me an approximate date for the suspected Eisenbahn unit and I will look and tell you if that type of unit (e.g., "Eisenbahn=Regiment", or "Eisenbahn=Bataillon") existed at that point in time, and the range of the numeration of the units that existed at that point in time. I have only a few Bavarian or Saxon Ranglisten.

Not deeply interested in unit markings on weapons myself, but happy to use my reference material to give you a leg up here.

Bob

Bob

[shippingsteel]

Give me an approximate date for the suspected Eisenbahn unit and I will look and tell you if that type of unit (e.g., "Eisenbahn=Regiment", or "Eisenbahn=Bataillon") existed at that point in time, and the range of the numeration of the units that existed at that point in time.

Bob

Thanks very much for your efforts to enlighten me, Bob. I must admit the unit markings area is a bit of a minefield. I think most of us are working off a very limited knowledge of how the system actually worked. I realise there must be experts out there that know all about this stuff, but they are usually never around when you need them.!

A major difficulty is that it is very hard to tell exactly when the markings were applied. All you have is the initial date of manufacture of the item in question and from there the rest is usually guesswork. So in this case the carbine was manufactured in 1891 and usually first issued to Kavallerie units. I suspect that this marking is more likely to have been applied just pre-war or very early wartime. This scenario would have the weapon being classed as obsolescent and being issued to second-line support troops, such as the Eisenbahn units that I proposed, but thats just my take (or best guess.!)

As always any thoughts or assistance are greatly appreciated.

Cheers, S>S