Illegal weapons

[Skipman]

Is there any evidence of shotguns ever being used in the trenches. I know various weapons were illegal, including shotguns. What was acceptable, and what was not?
Obviously knobberries were used, were they legal? In a raid, I suppose anything went, were there rules on what could be taken?

Cheers Mike

[centurion]

Is there any evidence of shotguns ever being used in the trenches. I know various weapons were illegal, including shotguns. What was acceptable, and what was not?

Obviously knobberries were used, were they legal? In a raid, I suppose anything went, were there rules on what could be taken?

Cheers Mike

Shotguns were not illegal, indeed the Americans used combat shotguns for trench clearing. The Germans tried to claim that they were an illegal weapon under the Hague convention but without success. There is at least one thread on the subject somewhere.

[Guest]

Shotguns were not illegal, indeed the Americans used combat shotguns for trench clearing. The Germans tried to claim that they were an illegal weapon under the Hague convention but without success. There is at least one thread on the subject somewhere.

Thank you Centurion. I did have a look, but couldn't find a thread. If anyone can direct me to one, would appreciate.

Cheers Mike

[centurion]

Thank you Centurion. I did have a look, but couldn't find a thread. If anyone can direct me to one, would appreciate.

Cheers Mike

strange - searching with shotgun brought these up

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=132029&view=findpost&p=1255015

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=112832&view=findpost&p=1074447

[Guest]

thanks again. Well they weren't there a minute ago. Honest!

mike

[TonyE]

Maxim invented an "Automatic shotgun" for defensive trench clearing. It was really a sequential volley gun as it fired about thirty rounds one after the other and could only fire the whole magazine. It was loaded with shot and the idea was that if one's own trench was seized, this device could be fired and would sweep the trench of the enemy. The War Office did buy one but decided that it breached the rules of war and so decided not to pursue the idea. Ironically, one of the objections was that each round fired the cartidge case of the previous round as well as the shot load and there was concern a German might get hit by it! No worries then about huge shell splinters flying about!

There is also an British intelligence report that the Germans were developing a "shot" machine gun but I have never seen any other reference to such a device.

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

Maxim invented an "Automatic shotgun" for defensive trench clearing. It was really a sequential volley gun as it fired about thirty rounds one after the other and could only fire the whole magazine. It was loaded with shot and the idea was that if one's own trench was seized, this device could be fired and would sweep the trench of the enemy. The War Office did buy one but decided that it breached the rules of war and so decided not to pursue the idea. Ironically, one of the objections was that each round fired the cartidge case of the previous round as well as the shot load and there was concern a German might get hit by it! No worries then about huge shell splinters flying about!

The cartridge would qualify as a form of expanding bullet (or dum dum)

[Doc2]

About the only weapons which would be "illegal" under the Hague Conventions applicable at the time would be soft-nosed or expanding bullets (so-called "dum-dums") and small explosive bullets. Just about anything else was legally OK (except dropping explosives from Balloons, and that probably wouldn't have been much good in a trench raid). Bottom line regarding Shotguns-- they have been used in combat by the American Forces at least since before our revolution. They certainly were used during WWI. Look up Winchester 1897 "Trench Gun". Doc

[centurion]

This slightly oversize American shot gun once formed part of the defences of Washington DC during the ACW. (photo taken somewhat later)

The Chinese made significant use of such punt guns in various wars the latest being against the Japanese (a punt with its crew lying prone in marshy terrain or paddy fields would be very difficult to spot).

[Doc2]

I certainly wouldn't want to be the guy holding it to his shoulder when fired.... (Yes, I know that isn't how they would be used, but still needed to comment on that great photo!). Fov

[Pete1052]

U.S. Model 1897 Trench Gun

[centurion]

About the only weapons which would be "illegal" under the Hague Conventions applicable at the time would be soft-nosed or expanding bullets (so-called "dum-dums") and small explosive bullets. Just about anything else was legally OK (except dropping explosives from Balloons, and

gas of course!

[Tom W.]

I certainly wouldn't want to be the guy holding it to his shoulder when fired.... (Yes, I know that isn't how they would be used, but still needed to comment on that great photo!). Fov

Video of a punt gun being fired.

[Guest]

Good grief!

When does a rifle edit shotgun become an artillery piece?

Cheers Mike

[centurion]

My grandfather was a Lincolnshire yellow belly and a punt gunner to boot before WW1. When in a punt (not like an Oxbridge punt more like a broad shallow canoe) the gun didn't buck like that (but the punt went backwards at a rate of knots). It would take hours to work up to the flocks of ducks, both men lying on their stomachs. The punt was aimed and one round was all you got, then you picked up whatever ducks you'd got (sometimes none) and paddled home for tea. Granddad apparently carried a thermos of brandy, lemon and sugar, purely for medicinal purposed you understand - it could be cold out on the fens.

[Dan Brock]

I've always read that these gigantic shotguns, 8g or 4g (1/4 pound of shot per load for the 4g) were used by "market gunners". These were the guys supplying game to the high-class restaurants - the ones who exterminated the passenger pigeon.

[centurion]

I've always read that these gigantic shotguns, 8g or 4g (1/4 pound of shot per load for the 4g) were used by "market gunners". These were the guys supplying game to the high-class restaurants - the ones who exterminated the passenger pigeon.

We're drifting off topic (my fault) but the punt gun was what it said on the can, used in a punt and therefore for waterfowl only. The Passenger Pigeon etc were shot on the wing and in the latter case exterminated mainly by farmers protecting their crops. Until comparitivly recently a British farmer could use in defence against a charge of shooting someone elses game (pigeon, pheasant etc) or a protected bird the presence of grain in the birds crop proving that it had been feeding on his plants when shot.

[Guest]

" We're drifting off topic (my fault) "

Yeah, come on, keep on topic. Is there any evidence punt guns were ever used in the trenches? I think not

Cheers Mike

I'm sure if you do a search you'll find a few threads on the subject. ( actually you won't)

Just joshin'

[centurion]

Actually it appears that the RN operated a couple of punt guns in WW1 one by the RNAS in England and one by the surface fleet in Egypt (Alexandrian marshes) for the purposes of supplying officers' messes with duck and other water fowl

They would have looked something like this civilian specimen

http://www.basc.org.uk/filemanager/root/site_assets/howto/wildfowling/essex_coast/shooting--conservation-walt.jpg

I believe the term for the type of vessel used is a 'crude punt' [a term best avoided by the Rev Spooner)

These types of weapon were used in WW2 by Chinese guerrilla forces (although from the account I have read they were later breech loading varieties) for night time interdicting of Japanese supply routes across marshy areas. Punt guns were also used against British Forces in Burma in the late 1880s

I believe that the use of the weapon is banned under current US hunting regulations but is permissible (with some restrictions) in the UK

I suspect that this is illegal almost anywhere http://www.fototime.com/%7BF0661E0C-E300-401F-968A-E6F1E5D3A458%7D/picture.JPG

There that should put it to bed

[Guest]

" There that should put it to bed "

I reckon so

Cheers Mike

[SiegeGunner]

I suspect that this is illegal almost anywhere http://www.fototime.com/%7BF0661E0C-E300-401F-968A-E6F1E5D3A458%7D/picture.JPG

Ah, but that's not a weapon - it's a propulsion system ...

[schooner]

U.S. Model 1897 Trench Gun

Apparently when the Germans complained about the usage of shotguns, the U.S said they were used to knock thrown hand grenades out of the air.

[Guest]

Were crossbows ever used? There is mention of it HERE but no actual evidence.

mike

[centurion]

Were crossbows ever used? There is mention of it HERE but no actual evidence.

mike

The French used at least one large cross bow as a grenade launcher. Will post picture whencan.

[centurion]

Here you go