Harry Flashman V.C. Posted 13 December , 2010 Share Posted 13 December , 2010 What do Members think of this rifle. I found it the other day It is a SMLE dated 1913 I think still with the Volley sights and im sure its for sale by WD militaria priced between £500-600. First one I've found with the volley sights so far. I think its been on the site for quite a while Already have a dated 1915 SMLE with magazine cut off no sights I bought at Bolton Arms Fair a few weeks ago. Can't put a link to it as i'm at work and restricted to certain sites All the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 13 December , 2010 Share Posted 13 December , 2010 He has it listed at 585. Couple of observations: It is very hard to see on the picture (and there is no close up provided which may be telling) but there does not appear to be the rear peep arm for the volley sight attached. It may be there but it is not obvious on the picture. The front volley sight base is also odd - IIRC it should be marked LES III or LES 2 and graduated from 1600-2800 yards. This one is marked CL and graduated from 1700-2700.... this means (I think) that it is from a Charger Loading Lee-Enfield (Long) resighted for MkVII ball ammunition and therefore not correct for this rifle. I am doing this from memory without checking my references....so it might be worth double checking. If I am correct then this suggests this is a reconstruction rather than an original rifle. There is also a very large repair in the rear of the forend which doesn't look too secure. The serial number prefix is correct for a 1913 Enfield produced rifle. The pictures do not show the underside of the rear sight or the bayonet boss so we cannot see if these numbers match. As it is deactivated and therfore just a decorator this may not be important to you but given what appears to me to be a high asking price (I am not current on UK deactivated prices) these are perhaps worth noting. On the up side it has an earlier rounded cocking piece and a windage adjustable rear sight which are both correct. It is not possible to see which version of the magazine it has. Just a few thoughts. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Flashman V.C. Posted 13 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 13 December , 2010 Cheers Chris. Its the first so far that i've seen with the volley sights. How rare are rifles still fitted with them? Also for that price the wife would have somthing to say.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 13 December , 2010 Share Posted 13 December , 2010 Cheers Chris. Its the first so far that i've seen with the volley sights. How rare are rifles still fitted with them? Also for that price the wife would have somthing to say.... Because the volley sight was deleted in late 1915/early 1916 they are pretty rare compared to non volley sight fitted weapons. In order to survive in original non altered state, a rifle would have had to avoid refinishing/FTR etc for the best part of 3 years of the Great War (with all the turnover implied there), the inter-war period and during WWII when huge numbers were refinished and reissued. So yes - pretty uncommon - but they can still be found. Anecdotally I would suggest there are several hundred non volley sight rifles to every one with the sights on (recall almost all post 1915 production and all WWII and after production would not have had volley sights)Given the huge number of Indian produced SMLEs that have come onto the market in the past five years it may even be thousands to one. However, as I said above, I am not sure this one is original to this rifle, given the markings on the plate. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 13 December , 2010 Share Posted 13 December , 2010 Chris is right, the front volley sight is from a CLLE, as apart from the telling "CL" mark it is only graduated to 2,700 yards. A SMLE Mark III volley dial should go to 2,800 yards. Also, I cannot see a rear volley sight arm. I tried enlarging the picture slightly but still could not see anything. Personally I have no interest in a deactivated rifle but I understand that there is a market for them. Even so, I think that one is too expensive given the questions raised about provenance. You might be better trying one of the specialist companies like EFD Associates rather than a general militaria dealer, or waiting until July and going to Beltring. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 13 December , 2010 Share Posted 13 December , 2010 What do Members think of this rifle. I found it the other day It is a SMLE dated 1913 I think still with the Volley sights and im sure its for sale by WD militaria priced between £500-600. First one I've found with the volley sights so far. I think its been on the site for quite a while Already have a dated 1915 SMLE with magazine cut off no sights I bought at Bolton Arms Fair a few weeks ago. Can't put a link to it as i'm at work and restricted to certain sites All the best Waste of money and space, Harry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Flashman V.C. Posted 13 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 13 December , 2010 Cheers all for the info All the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peregrinvs Posted 14 December , 2010 Share Posted 14 December , 2010 An interesting thread as I also own a 1913 Enfield MkIII. (Purchased for a bit less than the 'impressive' WD Militaria price...) It lacks the long range sights and the MkIII forearm, but otherwise - AFAIK - it has all the correct parts. However, the "It is not possible to see which version of the magazine it has" comment sparked my interest - which version should it have? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 December , 2010 Share Posted 14 December , 2010 Mark, There were several variations of magazine type (they are numbered on the rear spine). The most common and general wartime issue was the 4th variant but earlier versions had a number of differences in construction, in particular regarding the "stop clip" attached to the front edge, and the feed lips. Some of these modifications had to do with the switch from the MkVI to MkVII .303 round and their differing bullet profile. I would need to check the introduction dates for the various types, but my recollection is that the 4th variant (without the stop clip) was a wartime introduction and therefore would not have been original to this rifle. If yours has had the furniture replaced, then it is highly likely it will also have a 4th variant magazine I think - which would be correct for wartime use but not original. When I get home I can check the dates - unless someone beats me to it! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18th Battalion Posted 14 December , 2010 Share Posted 14 December , 2010 I have 2 SMLE's, a 1915 BSA MkIII which has a No.2 magazine and a 1918 BSA MkIII* with a No.4 magazine. The No.2 is about 4mm longer than and lacks a small flat tension spring to the bottom section of the rear spine found on the No.4; it also has a hole opposite the pivot point of the "stop clip" mentioned by Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18th Battalion Posted 14 December , 2010 Share Posted 14 December , 2010 Here's the two side by side; No.2 on the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 14 December , 2010 Share Posted 14 December , 2010 Here's the two side by side; No.2 on the left. Nice illustration, thanks. This last picture also shows two different patterns of followers (the platform upon which the cartriges sit and under which is a compressed "Z" shaped spring) on the right the follower is rivetted to the spring, on the left the spring is held in place in slots in the bottom of the follower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peregrinvs Posted 15 December , 2010 Share Posted 15 December , 2010 Many thanks for the pictures. My one has a No.4 magazine and it appears I have another accessory to look out for... How scarce are No.2 magazines and what would be a typical price these days? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18th Battalion Posted 15 December , 2010 Share Posted 15 December , 2010 Hi Mark Chris is the man for an informed answer, but I would say the No.2 magazines are likely to be quite scarce and probably pricey? Your No.4 magazine is correct for your rifle having been factory refurbished; so unless you would like to return your rifle to it's original configuration by replacing the volley sights and any other components that would have been removed or replaced in the FTR, you might as well save your money; because when the magazine is in the rifle, it's hard to tell the difference! Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 15 December , 2010 Share Posted 15 December , 2010 Hi Mark Chris is the man for an informed answer, but I would say the No.2 magazines are likely to be quite scarce and probably pricey? Paul Bought on their own from someone who knows what they are this is correct - most early versions were converted and they are relatively scarce. However, as the differences are usually only noted by those with particularly tightly wrapped anoraks it is sometimes possible to pick them up at the standard price. They are significantly less common. In the US currently, a complete No1 MkIII 4th variation magazine in used but fully functional condition is about $35.00. Earlier versions would probably go for double that or more if they are identified. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Flashman V.C. Posted 19 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 19 December , 2010 The 1915 SMLE I have has a No 4 magazine. It was deactivated in 2003 but the bolt numbers doesn't match the rifle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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