Markmanship scoring on rifle ranges

[Moonraker]

Richard Holmes in Tommy says that prewar hitting the bull on the rifle range earned four points (with three for an inner, two for an outer)towards the 130 points needed to be graded a marksman. But late in the war Harry Patch recalled how on the range at Sutton Veny he needed eight points to be a marksman, thus earning him an extra 6d a day. After having to adjust his rifle sights, he scored two bull's eyes, which gave him twelve points.

Did Harry - who must have been very old when he said this - misremember? Or was the points system altered, given that the intensive prewar musketry training (involving the firing of 250 rounds)was much reduced for wartime soldiers?

Moonraker

[Old Tom]

My memory does not go back to 14/18, however I am reasonably sure that in 1950 the scoring was for the bull, inner, magpie, and outer 4,3,2 & 1. I don't expect the system had changed after 1918.

Old Tom

[4thGordons]

I have been looking for my 1914 edition of Musketry Regs which has this information in I think but I cannot find it!

However I did find an earlier post from Tom Mcluskey indicating:

"Qualifying for Marksman, was covered in accordance with King's Regulations 1912, paragraph 683 & Musketry Regulations 1909 (with 1914 Amendment) Part I, paragraph 431. Muskerty Regulations states:

431 Cavalry & Infantry soldiers, if qualified in Part I, will be classified upon their total scores in Part III as follows...[basically score 130 points or more]

It connects to paragraph 682 (King's Regs), which is to do with 'Standards of Professional Efficiency'. It states:

Proficiency Pay

682 The general conditions of eligibility for proficiency pay are laid down in the Pay Warrant. Before a soldier can be regarded as in all respects physically capable of performing the duties of his rank in the arm of service of the service to which he belongs he must -

(i) ... [Cavalry]

(ii) ... [Artillery]

(iii) In the Infantry, combine physical endurance in marching with skill at arms.

Class I for the Infantry is a marksman

[for infantry] Scores for Marksman are in Musketry Regulations (1909), para 431. Which is a score of 130 (or upwards)

The shooting practice is in 'APPENDIX I, Table B'. There are various distances, exposures and a finite amount of rounds (pt 1 = 30 rounds, pt 3 = 50 rounds)"

FWIW: The 1859 Musketry Regs scores targets 3 bull, 2 inner 1 outer.

[Moonraker]

... he needed eight points to be a marksman, thus earning him an extra 6d a day. After having to adjust his rifle sights, he scored two bull's eyes, which gave him twelve points.

Moonraker

Charles Hennessey in his unpublished memoirs(Imperial War Museum 03/31/1)described shooting for a marksman rating at Sand Hill Camp (close to where Harry Patch was, at Sutton Veny, a year later) and he puts the extra pay at 2 1/2d a day. I wonder if it had been increased by Harry's time?

Moonraker

[gem22]

Moonraker

How many rounds had Harry fired before he scored the two bulls? If he had 4 points already then the two bulls would give him eight points and a total of twelve points n'est-ce pas?

Garth

[Moonraker]

All I have to hand are the facts in my opening post,which come from a word-processed precis of some hard copy somewhere in my files which may take a while to locate.

Moonraker