Cecil Harcourt Folder LEES shot Dublin 1921

[corisande]

We have had a thread on Cecil Lees non-commemoration hereand his submission for CWGC recognition is in hand with the group here who do that. I would now like to see if we can find out any more about Cecil Lees

My page on him is on this link and as with many of the men who served in Ireland, a "colourful" character

The facts as I have them are

1. Cecil Harcourt Folder Lees, born France 1873, Jun 20.

2. At the time of his death he was the heir to his father's Baronetcy

3. He seems to have become estranged from his family, and went to South Africa, joined Montmorency Scouts as a trooper, got a commission as a Lieutenant in Brabant's Horse, captured by the Boers and released, and resigned. All in 3 months in 1900

4. Joins SA Civil Service and works in fingerprinting indentured Chinese Labourers. Europeans could not tell one Chinaman from another, so they finger printed them

5. Married at least twice in SA. Intriguingly his "first" marriage lists him as "widower", so if there had been a son by an earlier marriage, any male descendants would be heir to the Baronetcy. No earlier marriage exists on Army records.

6. Because of his finger print experience with Chinese, he joined the British Army in "Chinese Labour Corps" as "Identification Officer"

7. Leaves SA 2 months after his "second" wedding, leaving the new wife to look after the 3 children of his "first" marriage. That was the last she heard from him. He abandoned them.

8. After end of war, he gets "Special Appointment" in Ireland, of a clerical nature. Which I assume to be fingerprinting . I cannot find anything on what the British were doing with finger prints in Dublin.Though it is a well known fact that an Englishman finds it easier to identify a Chinaman than an Irishman.

9. He was shot in Dublin in March 1921. There was a big to do over his will - the army lost it - a "fiancee" appears in Paris claiming Lees was divorced - younger brother more interested in establishing claim to title.

10. I have unearthed and am in contact with a Dave Lees in SA. It appears that after Cecil Lees death, his widow had an illegitimate son, who had the surname Lees, and was Dave Lees father.

Any information that anyone can add would, as always be welcome. I am keen to find out about fingerprinting in Dublin, and also if there actually was a "first" marriage.

[mhifle]

Hi,

This might be him on this Medal Roll.

Regards Mark

[corisande]

Thanks Mark

That will be him

[mhifle]

His Army Long Number

Regards Mark

[corisande]

Thanks Mark

David Underdown has already photographed that file

My link to David Underdown's photos

[mhifle]

Hi,

There seems to be a note 'papers missing from docs' on the Long Number.

Mark

[corisande]

Yes, it is always difficult to know with "special appointments" if papers are missing on purpose or by accident.

I know from reading the lot that they lost his will and I think that was an accident, I have no idea what else is missing

[mhifle]

From the 29 Nov 1920 Army List

General List

Lees C H F (Capt. ret) (Spec Empld) 16 July 20

Regards Mark

[corisande]

Now here is a funny thing. Chris Harley checked out the grave details for C F C Lees in Streatham Park Cemetery and discovered that this man was also buried in the same plot

Montague Arthur Fleming BULL (link for what I have found on him)

Oddly I have been able to find very little on him

1. Bull died 4 Apr 1921 (in cemetery records). CFC Lees died 30 Mar 1921

2. Plot is owned by Captain John Ivor Lees (this is presumable CFC Lees younger brother who got the title on CFC'c death) (see details on CFC's page)

3.Only the two burials in the plot

4.There is no headstone on the plot to either man. Which to me seems odd for the heir to a Baronetcy - the family were not short of money.

5 I can find very little on Bull. Only a marriage, a few months earlier, and his death, use he full name. A birth and 3 census entries exist for plain Montague Bull of exactly the right age, which may be him.

6. But no service info of any sort. No Army MIC, no Navy or RAF info that I can find

7. The plot was never used again

8 I can not establish any link between M A F Bull and the Lees family (I have failed to fins, say, a Bull or Fleming marriage to a Lees - but I accept I might not thought of all possible permutations)

9 Bull appears to have died in England as the Death is register in London (not, say, Dublin)

10. The timing of the two deaths is "strange". Could they be linked in some way?

11. Montague Bull (the only one I can find)appears to have been bankrupted in 1917 and was discharged in 1919, which could perhaps explain why he took to using M A F Bull in marriage in 1921. but it does explain any connection to the Lees family

Very odd

[David_Underdown]

I do wonder whether the lack of the headstone on Lees grave has anything to do with the family "issues" he had, and whether his widow in SA was able to block provision of the headstone in some way.

[IPT]

It is very odd.

The dates of death being so similar makes me wonder if it's a mistake on the cemetery records.

I see that one of Bull's brothers died in Canada in 1918 so the family were having quite a rough time of it around then.

[corisande]

the lack of the headstone on Lees grave has anything to do with the family "issues"

That was my feeling, but could find nothing to back it up. Seems a bit rough not putting a headstone on the heir's grave, but hell has no fury like a family quarrel

The dates of death being so similar makes me wonder if it's a mistake on the cemetery records.

Cemeteries don't usually make mistakes (though I accept they are not infallible)

What I looked at was whether he could have been shot in the same incident in Dublin and died a few days later in London - though if he had been badly injured he would have remained in Dublin, or if he had died in Dublin would have had an Irish death reg

Mind you students of these Dublin deaths know that there are odd goings on with burials. And what is odd with Bull is that there is nothing of a service record. Being bankrupt, you would have thought that he would have joined up for the job as much as the patriotism

Missed the brothers death in Canada, what was it?

[corisande]

I have solved the puzzle of who Montague Bull actually was - Ivor Lees brother in law

I finally found

· 6th Bart: Jean Marie Ivor LEES, b. 30th March 1875. m.1st Beatrice Nora Mary, d. 1927) daughter of the late E.E.DAVIS, of Kingston-on-Thames, Surrey, one son, two daughters; 2ndly, Gladys Isobel, d of F.W.BULL, Bassett, Southampton. Heir – son Charles Archibald Edward Ivor LEES. Sir Jean died 2 April 1957

And that ties up with census on Bulls

http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/british/castle-intelligence/lees/bull/bull.html

Where you can clearly see that Gladys and Montague Bull were siblings

It seems, to me a bit bizarre that both Ivor Lees brother and Lee's wife' brother die within 4 days of each other and are buried in an unmarked grave that the family never use again.

And as another twist Ivor Lees did not marry Gladys Bull until 1927 after his first wife's death - his remarriage was in same quarter as his first wife's death. These deaths of C F C Lees and M Bull are in 1921

[David_Underdown]

Well both brother and father had pretty chequered marital records, so it would perhaps be no great surprise if Ivor was also folowing in the family tradition!

[IPT]

It's an odd coincidence that Montague Bull died on the day that Cecil Lees was buried.

However, given the unseemly speed of John Ivor's second marriage, there is a possibility that he was already involved with Montague Bull's sister. If the Bull family were going through financial hardship, and John Ivor had little time for his own brother, then he may have agreed to this arrangement.

By the way, Cecil's first marriage appears to have been in 1900 to Nellie Hayes, who (apparently like his third wife) was born in 1877 in France.

https://www.familyse...56iYku8TUc%253D

[corisande]

Thanks for the reference to the first marriage. I cannot get anything more on Nellie, but have passed the reference on to Dave Lees in SA to see if he can find anything.

The date of the death has to be more than a coincidence - or putting it differently, the balance of probability is that it is more than a coincidence.

There might be a chance that Bull committed suicide - there were said to be a number of suicides related to the Irish murders, where undercover men could not take any more. I could get Bull's death cert, which might say gunshot wounds. But unless I can show he was an undercover man it does not take me any further forward

It is odd to me that I cannot get any service details for Bull. Certainly if Bull was financially strapped, then he was ripe for recruitment by Basil Thompson - but no paw prints to be found.

[corisande]

The "Montague Bull" in the grave is even more complicated than I thought.

My take Ivor Lees is on this link, the younger brother of C F C Lees. You can see the census and birth and marriage data.

One wonders how entitled they are to have the title today

Ivor got married using the name Ivor Cecil Douglas Lees to Beatrice Davies in 1898 and proceeded to have 3 children by her from then till around 1906. He then appears to have left her by 1911 census

Meanwhile Gladys Bull has assumed the names Lees and she and Ivor are producing children at the same time. However by 1911 Ivor is living with Gladys "Lees" and not with Beatrice.

And in 1922 Ivor is declared bankrupt.

Beatrice dies in 1929 and Ivor marries Gladys within months.

I am still no closer to seeing why Montague Bull died on the day of C F C Lees burial.!

[IPT]

I see Bull as being connected to John Ivor and therefore unlikely to be connected to Cecil, given the family situation.

Anyway, i've found some random snippets;

http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm300ds?201012151755352BEB5704&PN=00000001

This appears to show that Nellie died in 1904, and that he re-married the same year, as befits a member of the Lees family.

[corisande]

Thanks for the lead

I still am not convinced about Jean/John/Ivor and where he fits in. The Times bit on his death says he was in Boer War, as CFC was also

Given his bankruptcy he may have not had enough to pay for a headstone (mind you he could buy the plot)

[corisande]

By the way, Cecil's first marriage appears to have been in 1900 to Nellie Hayes, who (apparently like his third wife) was born in 1877 in France...

This appears to show that Nellie died in 1904, and that he re-married the same year

I had an email from Dave Lees (descendent of the illigitimate son of Cecil Lees widow)in South Africa pointing out that Cecil's father had remarried for the 3rd time in 1899, when he wed an American woman, Louise Hayes; the father died in 1917 and she remarried 1925 George R Snowden.

(this stuff is too complex to carry in one's head)

That would appear to indicate that there were two Hayes women on the scene - it seems just to be a coincidence, but with the Lees you cannot be too sure.