Gloucestershire Cap Badge

[Angrybudgie]

I am looking for some information about the Gloucestershire cap badge (photos below) that I own:

• first, was there a brass version of this cap badge before 1920
• second, could it be a prewar badge
• and thirdly, is there always a makers mark on the reverse

The badge itself appears to show considerable wear, with some detail quite worn. The reverse also to have the patina of age and a collection of old polish. I am intending on buying Peter Doyle's book, but it will be sometime before it arrives. Any help and advice would be appreciated.

Elizabeth

[jay dubaya]

Elizabeth,

1916 saw the issue of all brass economy badges due to the shortage of metals, many badges that were of white or bi-metal were issued to the mass influx of troops. Makers marks do not always appear on badges and the badge above looks a good original to me especially since we have signs of wear,

cheers, Jon

[max7474]

Sorry this is a fake. It has a die flaw seen on modern fakes and there was not a 1916 issue die struck brass version of this badge. This badge has been made to fill a gap in the 1916 economy badge collections that shoudl not be there. It may be on John Gaylor's dubious list in his book but I would suggest that the badge on that list was either an officer's bronze or a cast bazaar badge.

[kenf48]

Sorry this is a fake. It has a die flaw seen on modern fakes and there was not a 1916 issue die struck brass version of this badge. This badge has been made to fill a gap in the 1916 economy badge collections that shoudl not be there. It may be on John Gaylor's dubious list in his book but I would suggest that the badge on that list was either an officer's bronze or a cast bazaar badge.

Hi

Sorry to jump in, but never having been a collector of anything, except perhaps too many books, I find the above fascinating, but haven't a clue what you mean, especially the bit about 'filling a gap'; and what is a 'die flaw' .

Are people really going to the trouble to churn out fake WW1 cap badges in the 21st Century? Is there really such a market to make it worthwhile? It just seems mind boggling opportunism.

I'm not challenging your expertise but find it incredible, though perhaps not surprising, and wonder where you can find more information. What is the book you refer to?

Ken

[mark holden]

Ken,

Sadly the 21st Century is no barrier to fakes, copies or reproductions. Some items are never intended to decieve but many are deliberately made to fool people. All collectors have been through the frustration of buying original items that later turn out to be fakes. There is a resurgent interest in WW1 and its associated material and some cap badges change hands to the tune of 100s of £ so the investment in tools etc for the deceiver is well worth it.

Mark

[7t2ndswinger]

I fully endorse Max's post. There are collectors who take to time to go to the National Archives to study Army Clothing Dept orders and as a result have come up with a definitive list of what badges were WW1 economy issues. No all nickel badges were produced in brass, only those produced in bimetal prior to WW1.

The book by Gaylor (Collecting Military Badges) has an appendix with a list of supposed WW1 all brass versions in collections at the time of writing. It is wrong, plain and simple. That's not to say brass versions of nickel badges don't exist, they may do but are not official and that's possibly where the confusion comes from.

There is a massive industry in reproducion cap, collar, shoulder titles, helmet plates, etc.

I suggest members interested in subjects like the above also take up membership of the British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/

[Angrybudgie]

Thanks for the replies.......the badge books are enroute......so can some-one please elaborate with a bit more detail about the flaw... and also address my questions..

Sorry to be a pest..

Elizabeth

[7t2ndswinger]

Thanks for the replies.......the badge books are enroute......so can some-one please elaborate with a bit more detail about the flaw... and also address my questions..

Sorry to be a pest..

Elizabeth

I can't help with the flaw issue, but the first two questions have been answered - the badge in brass didn't exist at all officially. Brandings are unusual on early badges, most of those seen tend to be on private purchase badges or those ordered by territorial or volunteer units such as VTC,s OTC's, etc.

[Angrybudgie]

Thankyou 7t2ndswinger..... that clears up that little bit..

Now if someone could explain the flaw....

thanks

Elizabeth

[jay dubaya]

Elizabeth,

looks like the boys blew me out of the water and so I appologise for what now appears to be a totally misleading post from myself.

Max & Swinger, I bow to your superior knowledge and have frowned upon my copy of Gaylor's list, I have also taken your sound advice and joined the BCMBF and spent the last 2 hours trawling relevant posts.

Jon

[max7474]

There is a certain aspect of the die that is a give away that it has come from the same (modern) die. It is only a minor detail but one that is perculiar to this reproduction die and is not found on original badges.