Guards cloth titles + patches

[Muerrisch]

Anoraks will wish to know that MHS Bull. 242 arrived today has an article, colour illustrated, of Guards idents during our period.

I do not have the expertise to critique it, but the photos. speak for themselves.

If this is your scene, recommended.

[Steven Broomfield]

Saw it this morning - very good.

One question, though: if I'm reading it correctly, the article implies that the Coldstream wore Red on White shoulder titles (i.w. red lettering on a white background). Am I reading it correctly (I'm at work now so can't check until tomorrow), and if I am, is that the case? I'd assumed they were the same as the Grenadiers with white lettering on red.

[Muerrisch]

Saw it this morning - very good.

One question, though: if I'm reading it correctly, the article implies that the Coldstream wore Red on White shoulder titles (i.w. red lettering on a white background). Am I reading it correctly (I'm at work now so can't check until tomorrow), and if I am, is that the case? I'd assumed they were the same as the Grenadiers with white lettering on red.

Thats what it says, but I wonder ..... someone once told me the Coldstream were unique among Guards in retaining the gilding metal title in our period. The CG cloth titles are NOT ILLUSTRATED which makes me think.

Expert opinion sought, as ever.

[Muerrisch]

Hi

Grenadiers definitely white letters on red see the attached but 26776 Guardsman Thomas Heywood KiA 30/8/17 wears both cloth and metal titles.

John

Thank you.

All infantry were ordered white on red by AO10/1902 which intro. SD.

Something buzzes in my head that the Coldstream briefly obeyed this, then reverted to GM titles and retained them through the war.

The article in question is virtually fully illustrated EXCEPT the shoulder titles for CG I,II,II and IV battalions, where only the numerals [scarlet Roman] are shown.

[Steven Broomfield]

Chris McCarthy's Passchendaele, The Day-by-day Account (page 103) has a photo of four Coldtreamers at Peolcappelle: they are clearly wearing the Roman numeral battalion number, but NOT wearing cloth titles. Interestingly, neither are they wearing GM ones, either.

The same book, on page 39, has a photo of a larger group of Grenadiers at Pilckem, clearly wearing a cloth title

(Actually, Grumpy, you'd love that picture: it has a beautifully-insignia'd WO with cuff badges of crown above crossed swords above flaming bomb. Splendid).

I wonder if Forum member Coldstreamer could shed any light?

[CT-Guards]

Looking for confirmation but CG had cloth titles (never seen one) = (red letters over white) never seen them worn during WWI though only Gilded. Sorry not much help I'm afraid

[Grovetown]

This might add some colour to proceedings:

Coldstream thread

Cheers,

GT.

[Steven Broomfield]

This might add some colour to proceedings:

GT.

It's the way you tell 'em, CT

Thanks, though: looks like the article was wrong - as the other thread says, possibly an assumption from other Guards regiments use.

Interesting in the other thread, too, that the Coldstream are referred to as "Coldstreams" and "Coldstream's". I was always taught they were never anything other than Coldstream

[CT-Guards]

It's the way you tell 'em, CT

Thanks, though: looks like the article was wrong - as the other thread says, possibly an assumption from other Guards regiments use.

Interesting in the other thread, too, that the Coldstream are referred to as "Coldstreams" and "Coldstream's". I was always taught they were never anything other than Coldstream

Not CT actually

[Steven Broomfield]

Not CT actually

Corection. For "CT", read "GT" throughout.

[Muerrisch]

to summarise, there is great doubt regarding Great War use of the Coldstream Guards white on scarlet square-ended worsted title, and perhaps the onus should be on anyone disagreeing to prove it with a photograph?

[squirrel]

Saw it this morning - very good.

One question, though: if I'm reading it correctly, the article implies that the Coldstream wore Red on White shoulder titles (i.w. red lettering on a white background). Am I reading it correctly (I'm at work now so can't check until tomorrow), and if I am, is that the case? I'd assumed they were the same as the Grenadiers with white lettering on red.

"Same as the Grenadiers" - probably the reason that they didn't wear them!

[Muerrisch]

The thort crossed my mind!

The historical perspective is that ALL foot were ordered white on scarlet in AO10/02 re. SD, this because twisted shoulder cord not shoulder strap.

c. 1905 there was a mass exodus of the army from expensive worsted to cheaper gilding metal for all sorts of items [about 2/3 cost per item] which coincided with desire for shoulder strap. As to whether CG wore the original scarlet titles, I know not. Probably, as of necessity.

So my belief is that all the Foot Guards entered the war with GM titles [three-part] then some re-adopted the original worsted. [why?] Finally there were the slip/ons or top of shoulder drab worsted, c. 1916. Don't know if these were adopted but examples of CG and rose exist which look kosher.

[Joe Sweeney]

Grumpy,

I'm not an expert on Guards titles, but this is what I understand.

In 1901/2 all Guards/ Line Infantry had white on Red Titles.

In 1904 GM re-introduced hower worn in parrellel with White on Red titles until those Ordered not to be worn in 1908 (when any remaining Corded jackets withdrawn).

All Foot Guard had GM titles 1914-1915/6. (the Guards Divsion History states this)

1915 (painted) 1916 (embroidered) Guards Slip on titles introduced (All Foot Guards) and heavily worn from summer of 1916. Tocemma used to have a CG rose slip-on title from the 1916 patterns.

This is a link to a photo summary pf Guards (mostly Grenadier)

http://www.footguards.org/original_photos.htm

In particular, here is a nice one of Grenadiers in Oct 1916 and most are wearing the slip-ons

http://www.footguards.org/GG%20Squad%20Photo%20-%20Cpl.%20Clews%20-%20Oct%2016.JPG

In Spring of 1917 some Guards regiments unofficially introduced the White on Red--Irish Guards White in Green and one Battalion of Scots added a Thistle to white on Red. No record of CG ever having gone to this type of Title during the Great War that I can tell.

Joe Sweeney

I don't have the article m,entioned and eventually would like to get a copy.

[Muerrisch]

Joe, thank you very much.

Look in your in-box soon for a scan or three!

[Steven Broomfield]

What Joe says about the Irish and the Scots pretty much confirms the article in respect of those regiments.

Certainly seems like the author got it wrong about the Coldstream, though.

[Muerrisch]

What Joe says about the Irish and the Scots pretty much confirms the article in respect of those regiments.

Certainly seems like the author got it wrong about the Coldstream, though.

Don't be too hasty please .... I am in touch with the author who is kindly and patiently looking into the matter.

[FROGSMILE]

The thort crossed my mind!

So my belief is that all the Foot Guards entered the war with GM titles [three-part] then some re-adopted the original worsted. [why?] Finally there were the slip/ons or top of shoulder drab worsted, c. 1916. Don't know if these were adopted but examples of CG and rose exist which look kosher.

Grumpy, RE " [why?] ", my understanding is that whilst it was regulation that web equipment be worn under the SD tunic's shoulder straps this did not recognise the practice of taking the equipment off when resting/sleeping in dugouts and funkholes with it ready to don for stand to and any other alarm. In these latter circumstances the men would throw on their equipment which regularly snagged on the brass titles and broke the attachment loops or the cloth of the straps themselves. This was a problem with all such brass titles and in part led to the adoption of cloth titles stitched to the arm.

[FROGSMILE]

Grumpy,

I'm not an expert on Guards titles, but this is what I understand.

In 1901/2 all Guards/ Line Infantry had white on Red Titles.

In 1904 GM re-introduced hower worn in parrellel with White on Red titles until those Ordered not to be worn in 1908 (when any remaining Corded jackets withdrawn).

All Foot Guard had GM titles 1914-1915/6. (the Guards Divsion History states this)

1915 (painted) 1916 (embroidered) Guards Slip on titles introduced (All Foot Guards) and heavily worn from summer of 1916. Tocemma used to have a CG rose slip-on title from the 1916 patterns.

This is a link to a photo summary pf Guards (mostly Grenadier)

http://www.footguard...inal_photos.htm

In particular, here is a nice one of Grenadiers in Oct 1916 and most are wearing the slip-ons

http://www.footguard...%20Oct%2016.JPG

In Spring of 1917 some Guards regiments unofficially introduced the White on Red--Irish Guards White in Green and one Battalion of Scots added a Thistle to white on Red. No record of CG ever having gone to this type of Title during the Great War that I can tell.

Joe Sweeney

I don't have the article m,entioned and eventually would like to get a copy.

Here's an interesting variation Joe where a man of the Guards Machine Gun Battalion is showing the regiment to which he is presumably attached via Gren Gds GM titles worn in the place where cloth ones would normally be.

[Muerrisch]

Grumpy, RE " [why?] ", my understanding is that whilst it was regulation that web equipment be worn under the SD tunic's shoulder straps this did not recognise the practice of taking the equipment off when resting/sleeping in dugouts and funkholes with it ready to don for stand to and any other alarm. In these latter circumstances the men would throw on their equipment which regularly snagged on the brass titles and broke the attachment loops or the cloth of the straps themselves. This was a problem with all such brass titles and in part led to the adoption of cloth titles stitched to the arm.

Thank you, I agree the logic.

Also, the thought occurs that a full pack plus respirator plus ammunition would press the lugs for GM titles into the soft fleshy parts of the shoulder ..... not popular or sensible.

[Muerrisch]

Saw it this morning - very good.

One question, though: if I'm reading it correctly, the article implies that the Coldstream wore Red on White shoulder titles (i.w. red lettering on a white background). Am I reading it correctly (I'm at work now so can't check until tomorrow), and if I am, is that the case? I'd assumed they were the same as the Grenadiers with white lettering on red.

Author says misprint, meant white on scarlet for all CG.

Some heavyweights doubt if titles ever worn, but photographic evidence is stacking up.

More when I get more.

[Guest gordons75/92]

When did the Scots guards start using the yellow on blue cloth titles?

[sw63]

Here's an interesting variation Joe where a man of the Guards Machine Gun Battalion is showing the regiment to which he is presumably attached via Gren Gds GM titles worn in the place where cloth ones would normally be.

Lovely photo Frogsmile. I would suggest that this photo was taken in the early days of the MGG and the GG title identified this soldier's parent regiment, as he does not have the Machine Gun Guards cloth title.