BWM - but no Victory Medal

[Esskay]

I've tried a quick search but can't find a definitive list of whereabouts someone who only received a BWM but no Victory Medal is likely to have served.

I understand the NA explanation is that he would have "rendered approved service overseas" but did not "serve on the establishment of a unit in an operational theatre" - from what I think I've read on here this would presumably include India, Gibraltar? - I wondered about Malta but presume Ireland wasn't considered overseas

Can anyone provide a list or some thoughts

Man in question is - http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=360119

John Toop Moss - born 1878 - died in St Marks Hospital Chelsea

Thanks in advance

Sue

[rflory]

India, Gibraltar, Malta, Hong Kong and some other parts of Asia, Bermuda, France and Belgium (but not on establishment of a unit) and probably other areas that do not immediately come to mind.

[Patrick ODwyer]

India would be very (most?) common in this respect but any country not in a theatre of war (or some journeys by ship) could be possible.

As Ireland was part of the United Kingdom it was a home station.

[Esskay]

Thanks very much for the suggestions - appreciated

Sue

[taylov]

His Medal Index Card does not mention any service except in the Hampshire Regiment. That being the case his BWM is almost certainly for India. For example, as far as I can see, the 1/5th, 1/7th and 1/9th Hampshires served in India during WW1 without going to any other theatre of war that would have qualified him for a Victory Medal.

Tony

[Michael Johnson]

Most likely 1/9th, as there are three of them casualties in the block 39800-39899.

[Esskay]

Thanks for this additional info - a question if anyone can help - LLT says the 1/9 went to India - and then moved on to Russia in Oct/Nov 1918

A google search brought up this fascinating article about an album of photos featuring the 1/9 that was up for auction earlier in the year

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1258286/All-quiet-eastern-The-amazing-photo-album-shows-boys-fared-India-WWI.html

I'm inclined to believe the LLT info over a press report - but this suggests they were also in Mesopotamia - but no ref in LLT - service here as well as Russia would presumably have added the Victory Medal to entitlements - and a quick flick through similarly numbered MIC's on Ancestry seems to show most of them having both.

My presumption then is that the man in question was invalided home at some time from India - certainly he died before they went to Russia - but can anyone throw any more light on Mespot??

Actually should probably do a search of the forum I guess

Cheers

Sue

[Guest tom andrews]

9th Hampshires went to Russia (as did 2nd Hampshires, though they went from Europe and 9th went straight from India). Those who went to Russia were awarded a victory Medal

A number of men from the 9th will have been sent to drafts of 4th, 6th, and 7th Hampshires, all of whom served in the middle east, thus gaining a Victory Medal, although 5th remained in INdia, but then served on the North West Frontier (India Medal, but no Victory medal)

Soldiers Died in the Great War has John Toop Moss as dying posted to Depot

[Keith_history_buff]

  

On 30/09/2023 at 15:19, Gareth Davies said:

I guess the key words are "who left their places of residence and rendered approved service overseas". I guess in this case that service in the US wasn't approved service?

During the Boer War, the Queen's South Africa medal was issued to those men who participated in the campaigns of that war.

There was also the Queen's Mediterranean medal. For those units that served in garrisons in the Mediterranean, they freed up units to redeploy to South Africa. It was felt they were deserving of recognition, hence the the Queen's Mediterranean medal came into being. The medal ribbon is the same as the QSA, and the medal is similar, except the inscription 'SOUTH AFRICA' has been replaced by the word 'MEDITERRANEAN' on the reverse of the medal.

Carrying on in this vein, rather than create a WW1 equivalent of the Queen's Mediterranean medal, it makes sense for overseas garrison service to be interpreted as meeting that definition of those 'who left their places of residence and rendered approved service overseas'.

If it were decided that the War Office were to award the BWM to soldiers overseas undertaking administration (I'm thinking British Canadian Recruiting Mission), training, consular duties etc, there may have been the argument that soldiers performing the same duties in the UK should also be entitled, and the War Office did not wish that to happen.

Hope this gives a bit of context.

Thanks
Keith

 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

Whether garrison troops in Egypt would be awarded the Victory Medal, in addition to the British War Medal, is appearing in the Index to Medals Branch Decisions Books for the 1914-1918 War - "E". The decision on how to answer this specific question is recorded in book 4 page 6.

'957/N.W. 23/3/20
Garrison Bns in Egypt subsequent to midnight 18/19th March 1916

Informed A.A.G., 3rd Ech. E.E.F. - that those Garrison Battalions who served in Egypt after midnight 18/19th March 1916 & who were not borne on the strength of the E.E. Force, are precluded from the award of the Victory Medal in respect of each service. (A.A.G. replied that all Garr. Btns. serving in Egypt after 18/19th March 1916 were on the strength of the EEF) lr d/4/4/1920.'

The Medals Branch Decisions Books were transferred to Kew in 2008. I am not immediately aware of the currently published key reference books on WW1 awards referring to these books. It is my understanding that any subsequent books authored by Howard Williamson will refer to this content. The most recent edition of "British Battles & Medals" was in 2006.

[Brian J Owen]

Hi Esskay, I looking at a B.W.M. at a fair, all it had was a name, John. E. Roberts no number, so I looked him up, and he never qualified for a Victory medal date of entry to theatre 04-02-1918, he was member of the Y.M.C.A. Church Army with the rank of Reverend,

I wish I had bought it now,

Kind Regards,

Brian

[Keith_history_buff]

On 24/11/2010 at 05:43, Esskay said:

Thanks for this additional info - a question if anyone can help - LLT says the 1/9 went to India - and then moved on to Russia in Oct/Nov 1918

My presumption then is that the man in question was invalided home at some time from India - certainly he died before they went to Russia 

Actually should probably do a search of the forum I guess

Cheers

Sue

There's been a few more records come to light since this was posted.

I don't know if the gratuity calculator could add any further info about his service. His sister Cecilia was recorded as legatee, with a gratuity recorded of 12£-9s-6d. 'Date and Place of Death: 4.5.18 G. Hospt.' His death in 2Q 1918 is registered with the GRO in the Chelsea district, Volume 1a page 386.

Based on his service number, he appears to have served with the 9th Battalion, Hampshire Regiment. The Register of Soldiers' Effects records him as being with the regimental Depot. From a pay and accounting perspective, I have seen this in army records whereby the soldier concerned is hospitalised, struck off the strength of his former battalion, and is borne on the books of the regimental depot. 

The WFA pension info tells us that he died after discharge from the army, he is single and his mother Harriett lives in Cornford, Liphook.

The BWM medal roll tells little. A clerk has written in black ink "3rd" next to his service number. Time spent in 3rd (Reserve) Battalion would not result in a BWM entitlement, so it would appear that he was with 9th Battalion in India, medically evacuated, medically discharged and then died. The clerk should have made it clear as to which battalion he was in when he performed his 'rendered approved service overseas'. Whatever ailment he picked up in India, it suggests that his death was a result of army service, hence his commemoration by the CWGC and his burial in the locality of his family's place of residence.

[Keith_history_buff]

1 hour ago, Brian J Owen said:

Hi Esskay, I looking at a B.W.M. at a fair, all it had was a name, John. E. Roberts no number, so I looked him up, and he never qualified for a Victory medal date of entry to theatre 04-02-1918, he was member of the Y.M.C.A. Church Army with the rank of Reverend,

I wish I had bought it now,

Kind Regards,

Brian

He has been added to a BWM roll for civilians, hence the CIV prefix, and as such would have no entitlement to a Victory Medal.

NW/9/1208
Reply to Genl Secry Comrades of the Great War re. award of decoration to Civilians.

Informed the General Secretary Comrades of the Great War that as stated in an answer given in the House of Commons on the 3rd November 1919, 'that a Commemorative War Medal is essentially a token intended to show that the recipient fulfils certain specified conditions of service in a war zone. It is in accord both with precedent and equity that Civilians who have rendered necessary service in a theatre of war to the troops engaged therein should be rewarded by a token of the same nature.

A distinction is made between fighting and non-fighting service by the award of clasps [to the 1914 Star].

[Brian J Owen]

Hi Keith,

Thank you for the info on the post I submitted, I had no idea about civilians receiving a token for their service, thanks again, 

Kind regards, 

Brian 

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Brian,
Glad this was of interest. I wish you better luck, the next time you look at medals for sale.

Thanks
Keith

[Brian J Owen]

Hi Keith, I have still got the dealers number I might give him a ring and see if he's still got it, you never know, thanks again,

Regards, 

Brian 

[Keith_history_buff]

I think the highlighted part applies to the YMCA and the Church Army

• WO 329 - War Office and Air Ministry: Service Medal and Award Rolls, First World War
• Subseries within WO 329 - British War Medal and Victory Medal: miscellaneous

Reference	WO 329/2355
Description:	Young Men's Christian Association (YMCA): medal rolls CIV/107A3; CIV/107A4; CIV/107A5; CIV/107A6; CIV/107A7; CIV/107A8 (Pages 220A-517A). YMCA/101A (Page 1A).

Reference:	WO 329/2353
Description:	Church Army: medal rolls CIV/101A; CIV/101A2. Pages 1A-90A.

 

[Brian J Owen]

Hi Keith, thank for this latest information, I think it's brilliant that there is so much information about the First World War out there that I never knew existed, 

Thanks again, 

Brian

[depaor01]

41 minutes ago, Brian J Owen said:

...there is so much information about the First World War out there that I never knew existed

Sure is. If I'd seen your BWM I'd have assumed it was Mercantile Marine because of absence of number and regiment. Never knew there were other circumstances where there'd be name alone.

Dave

[Brian J Owen]

Good morning Dave, thank you for your reply, I have been interested in the first World War for a few years now and sometimes it's hard to remain focused on your original goal, but this makes a welcome change, have a good weekend, 

Kind regards, 

Brian 

[Keith_history_buff]

Under 2a of Army Order 266 of 1919, Private W H Abel's sole entitlement is a British War Medal. Interesting to see that the detail is very specific to his circumstances.
 

Quote

Theatres of war in which served with dates of service

None, unless the High Seas during October and Novr. 1914, also Bombay about was a
defended port front coast
port counts as Theatre of War

 

 

[Brian J Owen]

Good evening Keith, how on earth did you find this chap? I have looked him up on the medal index card and there's no reference to him.  

Brilliant find, 

Kind regards, 

Brian 

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Brian,

There's a different thread, whereby the story told to the family says one thing, yet the records themselves tell a different story. It was there that I saw the medal roll entry.