1st/4th Northamptoshire Regt WOs & Sgts

[Mick Simpson]

Hi All

Having looked at some previoius threads on the Regt, in particular RSM W D Marsden (which included two newspaper articles with pictures of a number of NCOs) I have started to look further at the 1915 St Albans Phot of the WOs and Sgts which is posted on flickr http://www.flickr.com/photos/northampton_museum/4560001490/in/set-72157624265863193/ along with a nominal roll. To exercise my mind I have tried to put the names to the faces. At first look there did not seem to be any logic to the listing other than Rank order.

I think that the nominal roll is set out, rear row Left to Right Sgt G Bryant to the unknown (After A Robison). 3rd Row L- R Sgt Matthews to Sgt W Wyles. 2nd row officres, WOs and C/Sgts left to right in thier respective ranks (RQMS Capp sat next to RSM Hatton?) Finally the Front row L- R Sgt G George to Sgt T C Briody (Omiting T Hull, Sgt Drummer who is bottom of the 2nd row list by his appointment).

Am I treading on old ground here, has this already been done?

Can anyone confirm some of the faces?

Is Sgt W Marsden the same RSM WD Marsden? If so he shot up the ranks compared to some of the others. was this due to he previous service with the 48th? The previous post on him said he went to Gallipoli as a CSM.

F Reynolds seems to have been another fast mover up the ranks.

Two F Barron on the list, mistake?

My Great Granfather is Sgt J Simpson 3rd Row 3rd man L-R (Jet Black hair). who i have used as a reference point to make sence of the nominal roll.

Regards Mick

[Stebie9173]

Mick,

I certainly haven't tried to put names to faces yet.

The previous RSM (RSM Arthur William Hatton) was blown up and killed by a Turkish shell along with Major Albert Cecil Henson whilst they were waiting to see the C.O. (Lieutenant Colonel Edward George Curtis) on 22nd August 1915. According to one source it was regarding a Court Martial case. It appears that the man under Courts Martial was also killed.

CSM was the next rung down from RSM, so Marsden filled his "dead men's shoes".

CSM Marsden:

CSM Harry Hardy took over the RSM's job from William Marsden in January 1919.

CSM Hardy:

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Also:

Sergeant Goode:

Sergeant Briody:

The officers are incidentally in a different order on the list to the picture. They are Major Gerald Fuller, Captain John Brown, Lieutenant Colonel Edward George Curtis and Quartermaster Reuben Goacher.

Steve.

[Mick Simpson]

Hi Steve

Thanks for the additional Pictures. Goode, Briody and Hardy are a good match for where i have them placed on the 1915 Photo. Not sure about Marsden do you know if there was a Sgt W Marsden as well as CSM W D Marsden in Gallipoli. If not he would have to have been in the right place right time to fill several deadmans shoes to Go From Sgt Jul 1915 to RSM Aug 1915!!!

I saw on the Northampton Borough Roll of Honour that Sgt Thomas Briody was killed in France, presume he transferred to another battalion at some point. (Just looked at his MICs R Sussex Regt.) Must upgrade my account so I can read the DCM citation!

Regards Mick

[Stebie9173]

My brief notes on Sergeant Briody:

200004 Sergeant Thomas C Briody

DCM Award, London Gazette 16th August 1917

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty [on 19th April 1917 at the Second Battle of Gaza]. Although wounded in two places, he continued to lead his platoon with great gallantry until wounded for a third time in the head.

Wounded in head, shoulder and thigh on 19th April 1917. Treated in Hospital at Cairo.

Son of Thomas and Charlotte Briody of Northampton. Husband of Mrs Briody of 27 Abbey St., Northampton. Formerly worked for Mr. A. E. Marlow.

200268 William David Marsden is shown on his Medal card as a Company Quartermaster Sergeant upon embarkation, so he only needed one step up to RSM.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Thomas Briody survived the war. He was one of the men left in Egypt when the 1/4th Battalion was reduced to Cadre on the 21st September 1919, and who was transferred to the 17th Battalion of the Royal Sussex Regiment on that date.

Steve.

[Mick Simpson]

Hi Steve

Just Checked the Roll again and Thomas Briody. He is a Sgt 1/4th northamptonshire and his address was 27 abby street.. The Remarks column states (Wrongley) Killed in France. Another lesson for me of don't always believe what you read!

Of course the Rank step up issue I'm thinking modern day promotion/ranks! It was slightly different back then.

Another thing I spotted on the Photo is what looks like a Badge above the Rank on the man (T H Bird. according to my theory) sat on Sgt Drummer T Hull's Left. (right as we look at Pic), or is it just a crease/shadow on the sleeve?

Regards Mick

[Stebie9173]

Which one is he by row and number, Mick?

Thomas Harold Bird was in the Vickers Machine Gun Section of the 1/4th Battalion. He became CSM of "B" Section of the 162nd Machine Gun Company (initially drawn almost entirely from the Northamptons) when the machine gunners transferred in 1916. If so it may be a machine gunner instructor badge which were usually worn above the rank badges.

Enlisted in the 1st Vol. Bn., Northamptonshire Regiment, No. 6058, age 18 years & 5 months, 1-9-1904 (resident at 40 Shakespeare Road, St Crispins, Northampton).

Discharged to enlist in the T.F., 31-3-1908.

Re-enlisted in the 4th Bn. (T.F.), No. 37, age 22 years & 9 months, 1-4-1908.

Camp at Milton Park, 2 to 9-8-1908.

Camp at Landguard, 1 to 8-8-1909.

Re-engaged for 4 years, 1-4-1910.

Camp at Ipswich, 31-7-1910 to 14-8-1910.

Cpl., 1-4-1911.

L/Sgt., 1-8-1911.

Camp at Thetford, 6 to 20-8-1911.

Sgt., 1-4-1912.

Camp at Worthing, 28-7-1912 to 11-8-1912.

Camp at Shorncliffe, 27-7-1913 to 10-8-1913.

Re-engaged for 4 years, 1-4-1914.

Embodied, 5-8-1914.

Embarked at Devonport for Gallipoli aboard H.T. "Royal George", 29-7-1915.

Landed at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli, 15-8-1915.

Attached to 162nd Machine Gun Company from 25-4-1916, and discharged from the T.F. to re-enlist in the Machine Gun Corps on 30-6-1916.

Re-enlisted in the M.G.C. at El Kubri, age 29 years & 11 months, 1-7-1916.

Promoted Col. Sgt. (W.O.2) and appointed C.S.M., 1-7-1916.

Invalided to UK from Alexandria, 9-2-1919.

Home, 19-2-1919.

Treated at Wharncliffe War Hospital, Sheffield from 18-2-1919.

Discharged, KR 392 xvi (sickness - malaria), 18-4-1919.

Awarded E.M.(T.F.) per AO 67 of 1919.

MID, LG 12-1-1920.

Northamptonshire Regiment No. 37, Machine Gun Corps No. 48321.

Still serving in 1920 (??).

Born at St Sepulchre, Northampton.

Next of kin: Wife, Marie Bird (nee Gibbard, m. 5-9-1907 at St Mary's, Far Cotton), 9 Leslie Terrace, Semilong, Northampton.

Children: Dorothy (b. 4-1908), Kathleen (b. 9-1909) and John (b. 18-7-1912).

Steve.

[Mick Simpson]

Steve

Front row L to R 7th,

6th is Sgt Drummer T Hull with the upside down stripes on his sleeve cuffs.

Mick

[Mick Simpson]

Steve

Another potential badge (or Shadow!) is Sgt W Hines, rear row number 5 from the right. (3 is Sgt Civil with the medal ribbons)

On the roll of Honour it states that Hines was invalided home with "frozen feet"

No doubt this will continue tomorrow as it is getting late (i'm an hour ahead of you at the moment)

Thanks for your help, again.

Mick

[Stebie9173]

I'm pretty sure that the badge on Bird is an intructor badge (presumably an MG one), though it is possibly on the wrong sleeve.

Sgt Drummer Hull's chevrons are probably Good Conduct stripes (4 x 5 years = 20 years) but these were not really supposed to be worn when you reached Corporal and above, so I'm not 100%.

Sgt W Hines was very probably 1073 Sgt Walter Hines (Lance-Sergeant when he embarked to Gallipoli on 29-7-1915). He later transferred to the Leicestershire Regiment (No. 41584) and was discharged (I don't know the date). His Leicestershire Regiment SWB List was under the name "Osborne". In early December 1915 the 1/4th Battalion (and the rest of the battalions at Suvla) was effected by a big freeze, so he may have suffered his frozen feet then. I have no notes on what his speciality (if any) might have been. He was awarded the T.E.M. in 1934.

Sgt. William Civil was No. 68 in the Regiment. Discharged 2-10-1916.

While a think your theory of naming fits for the Sergeants at least I think we have to be careful with the Warrant Officers.

Rank-wise I think they run from left to right:

CQMS -- CSM -- CSM -- CSM -- Maj Fuller -- Capt Brown -- Lt Col Curtis -- QMr Goacher -- RSM Hatton -- ?? -- CSM -- CQMS -- CQMS

This is CQMS Clayson:

and CQMS Capp:

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Looking at the men with medal ribbons we have:

W Civil, No. 68 William Civil, possibly 7200 Sgt W Civil entitled to Queen's South Africa Medal with Cape Colony, Orange Free State, & Transvaal clasps for service with the Volunteer Service Company of the 2nd Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment, plus SA 1901 Clasp for service with the 1st Volunteer Battalion, Northamptonshire Regiment

(or 2246 Sgt W Civil, 2nd battalion enititeld to QSA & OFS & Transvaal Clasps, plus KSA with 1901 & 1902 clasps for service with 2nd Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment - i.e the Regulars)

W Peach, No. 85 William Peach, possibly 7172 Pte W Peach entitled to Queen's South Africa Medal with Cape Colony, Orange Free State, & Transvaal clasps for service with the Volunteer Service Company of the 2nd Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment, plus SA 1901 Clasp for service with the 1st Volunteer Battalion, Northamptonshire Regiment.

W H Beasley, No. 95 William H Beasley, possibly 7519 Pte W H Beasley entitled to Queen's South Africa Medal with Cape Colony, Orange Free State, & Transvaal clasps for service with the Volunteer Service Company of the 2nd Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment, plus SA 1902 Clasp for service with the 1st Volunteer Battalion, Northamptonshire Regiment

The South Africa entitle was probably the one medal, the second medals may well by Volunteer Medals.

There are a few more, but I will try to make some more sense of them tomorrow.

There WERE two F Barrons who went to Gallipoli with the 1/4th battalion as Sergeants:

1730 Sgt Frank Barron, to Gallipoli as a Sgt. on 29-7-1915, commissioned 17-11-1916

and

200049 Sgt Fred Barron, to Gallipoli as a Sgt. on 29-7-1915, disembodied on 14-3-1919.

Steve.

[Mick Simpson]

Morning steve

I think the Clayson Pic is a good match, R end of 2nd row seated.

I went with the upside down chevrons as the Sgt (Drummer) Hull because that is also a current insignia for the SNCO in charge of the musicaly minded..

Hines on the Northampton roll is Walter Osborne Hines 30 Watkin Terrace.

William Peach 33 Stanhope Rd is annotated:- wounded followed by Jaundice.

The Capp picture helps I had put him next to the RSM but He is next to Maj Fuller (He has just a Crown on his sleeve, the surronding Laurals for the current RQMS appointment badge presumably came in much later?)

Owen Thompson is therefore next to the RSM. Which is what i initially thought seeing his photo but the badge issue threw me as you can't see his.

My current Theory on the names Left to Right is this:-

15 in Rear row:- Bryant, Austin, Barron, Goode, Beasley, Gregory, An Unknown, Taylor, Wright, Holloway, Hines, White, Civil, Robinson, An Unknown.

14 in 3rd row:- Matthews, Dadley, Simpson, West, Stevens, Dunmore, Byrne, Wright, Freeman, Barker, Marsden, Mason, Peach, Wyles.

13 in 2nd row:- CQMS Robinson, CSM F Reynolds, CSM H Reynolds, RQMS Capp, Maj Fuller, Capt Brown, Lt Col Curtis, Maj (QM) Goacher, RSM Hatton, CSM Thompson, CSM Hardy, CQMS Bower, CQMS Clayson.

11 in front row:- George, Barron, Moore, Chettle, Snart, Sgt (Drummer) Hull, Bird, Essam, Sharman,Muddiman,Briody.

Could either of the two Unknowns be Sgts Lilley or Pepper from the "Local Steelbacks Photo??" I reckon Peppr is a bit of a likness to the Unknown in the middle??

Just noticed there are Two A Wrights.

Also not 100% with the likness for Chettle between the two pictures.

Regards Mick

[Stebie9173]

Mick,

You are probably right with Sgt Drummer Hull. That is one (probably of many) insignia I wasn't aware of, so I am happy to label him as Sgt Hull! It also explains why the nonsense about good conduct stripes doesn't fit!

It also makes sense for the RQMS and RSM to be the two men flanking the officers.

I don't think either of the "A Wrights" have an initial "A". I think that they are:

1274 Leonard Joseph Wright, to Gallipoli as a Sgt. on 29-7-1915, discharged 13-3-1916.

and

2588 (200495) Edgar Wright, to Gallipoli as a Sgt. on 29-7-1915, disembodied 8-4-1919 (MID as Sgt, LG 12-1-1918)

Steve.

[Mick Simpson]

Thanks Steve

Probably why I can't yet find MICs that fit!

Regards Mick.

[Stebie9173]

I've just noticed that there were two Sgt. Goodes who went to Gallipoli on 29-7-1915.

THOMAS Goode (2314 & 200371) who embarked as a Lance-Sergeant

and

HENRY Goode (552) who embarked as a Sergeant.

Sgt Goode could be either, but he is labelled as "H Goode" so I think we need to change ID's on him!

(Bearing in mind the initials error on the Wrights!!)

Steve.

[Mick Simpson]

Steve

Ah! Which Goode is the Photo you posted?

mick

[Stebie9173]

The picture is of 2314 Thomas (Tom) Goode.

Steve.

[Mick Simpson]

Steve Thanks, do you have any clues on Sgt Muddiman, there seem to be plenty of them in the Northamptons?

Mick

[Stebie9173]

The only W Muddiman with a likely number (below 2500, and/or 200XXX) is a Private (No. 200522), but there is a 1659 (later 200157) Percy Muddiman embarked as a CQMS on 29-7-1915 (which may explain our "Missing" CQMS in the picture).

Steve.

[Mick Simpson]

Steve

May well be a type error? I found 200522 Pte but ruled him out. so Percy seems a very good possible.

I wonder if a few of them were gennerally referred by other names as was my Great Grandfather John know as Jack/ Although in his case it doesn't effect the initial.

Mick

[Mick Simpson]

Further to that maybe the nominal roll was done by someone at a much later date and struggled to recall everyone correctly hence two names missing??

[Stebie9173]

Also, there may have been a "handwriting reading" issue.....

Another initial discrepancy is A Austin who I believe is 623 Sgt William Austin.

Steve.

[Mick Simpson]

Steve

Do we know who took over as RQMS after Capp? I've come across a MIC of RQMS FG Jones MiD, On the Northampton Roll he is SSgt 1/4 Northamptons of 3 Cedar Road. Can't see an MIC for the usual 3 medals.

Mick

[Stebie9173]

I don't know Mick.

429 CQMS Charles Clayson took over as RSM from RSM Hatton from 22 August 1915 until Clayson's evacuation to Alexandria in October 1915 where he died on 22-10-1915, so it is unlikely (though not impossible) that he took over as RQMS.

Next in seniority (by number) was 719 CQMS Fred L Robinson (later of the Essex Regiment), followed by 1787 CQMS Stanley Robert Bower who was later commissioned into the 1/4th Battalion in January 1917.

It could be either of those, and then there is 200268 William David Marsden who was later the RSM, but who may have been the RQMS in the interim. The 1914-15 Star Roll says he went overseas as a CQMS.

Steve.