P14 ID Question

[gewehr]

Hi all, I obtained a P14 Enfield a while back, and frankly never really looked at it closely. Now, I'm cleaning it up to sell, and found that it's marked RE on the receiver, with a lot of broad arrow overstrikes and the usual cryptic British stuff on the side of the receiver ring. I think I know it's not Eddystone, could it be Remington? Can someone help me on this?

Dave

[TonyE]

Yes, it is Remington. Eddystone rifles were marked "ERA" on the top of the receiver ring and Winchester rifles have a serial number with a "W" prefix.

BTW, there's nothing cryptic about the British markings! It is just that we did not want everybody to understand them!.

Cheers

TonyE

[gewehr]

Thank You Tony! If I can expand this question a bit: My rifle has the volley sights removed per the Weedon Standard. They are plugged with plain wood, no regimental disk or anything like that. From what I've read, this arsenal upgrade was performed to nearly every rifle, yet I'm seeing a lot of rifles with the volley sights intact. I thought I saw them for sale somewhere, I don't know if they were repro or original, but I would think that would poison the history of the rifle. Is this true?

Also, I have a bayo for this rifle. It's marked US 1917 Remington on both the blade and scabbard, but has the two vertical cuts in the handle denoting P14. Is this the correct bayo for this rifle?

Many thanks for the help on this.

Dave

[TonyE]

Most Pattern '14 rifles that were retained in store by the British were refurbished by Weedon in 1938/9 and had the volley sights removed. However, some survived plus there were a large number that went to the Baltic states in 1919.20 that were in original condition. Some of these perhaps have found there way back to the US as surplus.

I have a Winchester that is complete with its volley sights and without a Weedon refurn stamp on the butt.

The correct bayonet should have British markings (such as the "X" for the bend test) on the ricasso and not have the US flaming bomb. If it has that it is a US Model 1917 bayonet. They all have the two grooves on the grips, originally put there to distinguish the bayonet from the Patt.'07 for the SMLE.

Regards

TonyE

[4thGordons]

Just out of interest - does the rifle have an * on the chamber and the bolt handle? (the bolt handle one often wears off)

Parts for P14 volley sights were (and are) available in the US and I think that some of the ones that you see for sale are "restorations" however I too have a Winchester P1914 with intact volley sights. It appears some WRS rifles had the volley sight plate removed entirely and replaced with a wooden insert - whereas others simply had the pointer removed and the centre ground down. There are three sorts of P14 stock - one produced by Eddystone is substantially fatter and lacks the grasping grooves (these are less common), the standard slimmer stock with grasping grooves and a later WWII replacement which is identical to the standard stock but with no provision for volley sights. I have only ever seen one of these later MkII stocks.

There seems to have been a bit of an influx of P14s into the US market recently - quite a lot of them seem to have come in from India and most of these seem to be in WRS format too.

Chris

[gewehr]

Yes Chris, the receiver ring does have a poorly struck * on it, I see an X type thing on the main leg of the bolt handle, but it almost looks like crossed flags under magnification. What does the * star thing mean? Looking strictly on the net, I have been reading a lot of conflicting information on these rifles, one source said that "almost all" were refurbished, but did mention as Tony pointed out, that some were exported. Seems like an awful lot were exported, or many missed the refurb arsenal. Every one I see or hear about has the volley sights.

Unfortunately this all makes mine look "unfinished" and damages the value and condition because it's not "complete" even though it seems somewhat more legitimate than those that escaped refurb. To me, it was MY rifle that helped defend Britain in her darkest hour, and not those that came from who knows where and are now "complete" because they have volley sights. Either that, or the information is wrong and very few were actually refurbished, and that volley sighted rifles and refurbs sat side by side on the racks. That's not to denigrate the rifles (or, of course, the owners) that have the volley sights, it just all seems backward somehow.

I appreciate the help, and forgive the rant, I'm just trying to make a point which is probably wrong.

Dave

[4thGordons]

Dave I think that there is a lot of misinformation (or at least unsubstantiated information) on firearms websites. One of the things I find so refreshing about the discussion on this board as compared to some others upon which I participate is that here people tend to document and justify their claims.

OK the * refers to a modification to the design relatively early on where the locking lugs on the bolt (and consequently the recesses in the receiver) were enlarged.

Here is a photo of the difference. Rifles without the modification are far less common.

Regarding the WRS numbers etc

A large number of rifles were supplied direct to India during the Great War - it is unlikely they would have gone through the WRS process although my anecdotal evidence suggests that they too had their volley sights etc removed. A proportion of these rifles were deactivated by drilling a large hole through the chamber and painting a red and white stripe on the stock (red white red) and stamping DP all over them - these too have returned to the US in recent years and you can often find the stocks for sale on various auction sites, the sellers negelecting to mention (or sometimes show) the large hole in them!

As TonyE indicated, rifles were also supplied to Estonia immediately post WWI and these too would not have been reworked.

Skennerton (Small arms of WWII) reports that 677,342 rifles were converted to WRS by various subcontractors etc (p10) in 1939

The usual production figures for all manufacturers of P14s is given as 1,243,515 (cf Charles Stratton Vol 4 The Pattern 14 Rifle and US Model 1917 Rifles p128)

so this would suggest that about 54% of produced rifles were converted. Allowing for sales overseas (Estonia and direct deliveries to India) and wastage I would think this makes WRS rifles far more common than unconverted ones.

I would be interested in where your are seeing all the voley sight complete ones... Gunbroker etc has WRS rifles outnumbering volley sight equipped rifles about 7 or 8 to 1 at my estimate.

I have 4 P14s, one is a MkI Winchester complete with volley sight, one is an Eddystone Mk1* in a fatboy stock (WRS), one is a Remington MkI*(WRS but I believe probably and Indian service rifle)this is a little rough, and one is a 1970s Navy Arms refininshed Remington in like new condition which I have a parker hale match sight on.

Given the numbers I provided above I think yours is indeed likely to have been a rifle dug out in 1938/39 as war approached, stripped down and rebuilt an then issued to home guard units in the UK. It may well have been supplied to Greece post WWII (or do the cryptic markings include sold out of service marks (two arrows point to point) or UK civilian proofs indicating sale within the UK) as large numbers were supplied to the Greek govt to use in the civil war. I have no problems with WRS rifles - they are an integral part of the rifles post WWI history. (you can PM me your asking price! )

It sounds like your bayonet is probably an M1917 US bayonet. Virtually identical except the markings - does it have a clearance hole in the pommel? P13s do not and most M1917s do) these will interchange (fit) but are not really correct.

Cheers

Chris

[TonyE]

I can add a little more to the information on numbers of Pattern '14 rifles that Chris gave.

When I was researching my dissertation on the supply of British rifles in WWI I looked into the question of P.'14 quantities in some detail. I went back to the weekly acceptance reports at each of the three factories (held in our National Archives)and these totalled 1,243,565, a figure that is also given as the total in one of the Ministry of Munitions summaries. The difference of 50 rifles in Stratton's total may simply be due to transcription errors over the years. In fairness as well, other Ministry documents do give slightly different figures.

It is known that 100,000 rifles were sent direct to India from the United States and that 1,117,850 were actually received in the UK. The "missing" c.25,000 can be explained by losses at sea to the "unrestricted" U-boat war.

Apart from a few sent to France for trials and perhaps a few losses elsewhere, all these rifles should have been available at the end of the war.

Moving forward to 1936 when there was great concern once again that Britain would be short of rifles in any future war, consideration was given to converting the existing stock of P.'14 rifles to a new calibre yet to be decided. At a meeting of the Ballistics Branch at Woolwich on 9th July 1936 Col.Hewitt reported that there were "700,000 1914 pattern rifles available - which would require reconditioning....It might also be of advantage to consider modification. If the rifles could be brought into use with efficiency then the urgency of supply would be less serious. The question at issue was how best to proceed.". This of course was the genesis of the Weedon program.

More importantly, it shows that between the end of the war and 1936 nearly half a million rifles had gone from store. As Chris points out, none of these would have undergone the removal of volley sights, whether they went to Estonia or not. It is believed some were sold to Soley Arms Co. who hoped to convert them to 7.92mm for sale to China but I have not tracked down any definite information on numbers.

My apologies for the long winded post, but I find the rather convoluted history of the Pattern '14 rifle fascinating.

Regards

TonyE

[gewehr]

Chris and Tony, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to educate me (and those watching) about these rifles. I knew virtually nothing about them before yesterday, and some of what I read was wrong.

The three sites I accessed on the web that discussed the history of the weapon all featured rifles with volley sights, total of 5. I did not check Gunbroker. I have Stratton for the SMLE's but not the P14, and never bought Skennerton.

The key comment both of you made was that only around half of the rifles underwent the WRS process. This is far fewer than others have claimed, and now makes things much clearer to me. My comment that the other (volley sighted) rifles did not defend Britain during her darkest hour is unsupportable and was somewhat unkind, as some of the rifles could have been recalled from other parts of the empire. I suppose this rifle could have been recalled as well, then stripped. Who knows?

As for the bayonet, there is no hole in the pommel, it is definitely a US 1917 as I have seen on ebay the various ones provided to Britain, overstruck with the broad arrow and other very meaningful (but still cryptic) markings, and with the leather covered scabbard. One was actually overstruck, then lined out, giving the bayo back to the US for 1917 service (I guess). Even the bayonets for these things are interesting. But, I need to sell mine, along with my SMLE collection.

The numbers provided are fascinating as well, it's amazing to me that they come out as close as they do. Logistics are indeed the key. It all demonstrates the tremendous strain governments are under to try and arm the nation during a time of war. I can see some gray whiskered fellow clutching this unfamiliar rifle, with a lump in his throat from and gazing across the channel wondering “when will they come?” It seems far fetched now but it was very real then.

Many, many thanks, to you guys, I did come to the right place for help. Chris, you will get a PM. Tony, is your dissertation available for reading somewhere?

Dave

[TonyE]

Dave - My dissertation is not available on any site but you are very welcome to a copy on a disk. PM me with your postal address.

Regards

TonyE

[4thGordons]

Chris, you will get a PM.

Dave - it is possible that you cannot PM (I think you need to have posted 10 times) - if this is the case you can email me via my website.

Chris

[gewehr]

Thanks for the replies, I will email Chris and get a note to Tony. Looking forward to browsing through both of your work.

Last question....I've attached a picture of my bayonet, and after cleaning (and putting on my glasses) saw that it has an X on it for the bend test (per Tony) and some bird head on the base of the blade. Is this a bayo made by Remington for the P14 and shipped to Britain? It is in a steel scabbard.

[shippingsteel]

Looks like a Remington bayonet made for the M1917 - no sign of British markings here, so may not have left the States. The steel scabbard is definitely not matching - wonder what it is for.?

PS. Some of the M1917 bayonets were sent over to Britain during WW2 under the Lend Lease program and used on the P14 rifles for Home Guard.

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

As stated above - these look like standard M1917 US markings to me.

I would be interested to see the scabbard - I do not know of any steel variants for this bayonet, there are several versions of scabbard but no metal ones of which I am aware. Any chance of a pic?

Here are a couple of side by side pictures of fairly standard UK markings on a Pattern 13 bayonet and a a US 1917 bayonet.

S/S I suspect that M1917 bayonets shipped to the UK probably accompanied the 50,000 US M1917 .30 rifles (actually purchased for 250,000 pounds in Jan 1941 prior to the Lend Lease Act of March) rather than intended for use with the P14 but if you have information to the contrary I would be interested in it.

Chris

[gewehr]

Thanks for the ID, I was afraid of that. I've attached a couple of pictures of the steel scabbard. Actually, there is another bayo identical to mine, including the scabbard, for sale on ebay right now. Thanks for the great comparison pictures, by the way, from the both of you on the bayo and the bolt.

Dave

[4thGordons]

Thanks for the ID, I was afraid of that. I've attached a couple of pictures of the steel scabbard. Actually, there is another bayo identical to mine, including the scabbard, for sale on ebay right now. Thanks for the great comparison pictures, by the way, from the both of you on the bayo and the bolt.

Dave

That is a WWII(? or later) scabbard (S/S will probably be able to give you details) - the M1917 bayonet continued in service and even limited production up through Vietnam as it was also used on combat shotguns.

Actually I don't think the whole scabbard is metal - just the throat, I think that if you check you will find the rest is made of a composite/fiberglass like material. It is correct for your bayonet although not for WWI service.

Chris

[shippingsteel]

The green plastic/composite scabbard is a "Vietnam era" version that was made for the M1917 bayonet. I believe these were made by Beckwith-Arden (B.A. Inc.) sometime in the mid 1960's. They have Parkerised finish steel mounts.

Cheers, S>S

[gewehr]

Well, I feel pretty stupid. I guess I figured since it was (apparently) parked, then it was steel. I've learned a lot in a couple of days, I never would have imagined a bayo marked 1917 would have a Vietnam era scabbard, or was even used that late. Thanks for the insights.

Dave