The Missing of WW1 - Numbers

[Seadog]

Has any clever person on the forum, of which there are many, calculated the approximate number of British (Inc Commonwealth) soldiers still missing and whose remains have not yet been found. My question relates to Flanders but any further data would be appreciated. I guess that in order to roughly calculate this figure it would be necessary to deduct from the total number of names on memorials such as the Menin Gate and Tyne Cot, the number of CWGC headstones inscribed as “Known unto God”. If anyone has undertaken such a calculation please post here.

Regards

Norman

[kenf48]

CWGC Annual report 2008-9

http://www.cwgc.org/admin/files/AR2009Service%20to%20Address.pdf

588003 = identified burial

527074= commemorated on memorial

187865=unidentified war burials

These figures are for Commonwealth dead for all theatres, but if we accept most unidentified are in France and Flanders you can do the maths, but a guesstimate of a quarter of a million still lie where they fell is probably not far out.

if you want British then I recently posted a figure of 701, 230 quoted in Geoff Bridger's Great War Handbook I guess you could work out a ratio but that would not be especially accurate as always it depends what you need the numbers for

Ken

'diligently recording with ruler and pen...

numbers and names that were men'

[phil andrade]

Middlebrook gives the most concise information on this, and while it alludes to the Somme battlefields, it mght be used for a more general extrapolation. Roughly one half of all the British Empire dead on these battlefields were found and identified. Approximately one quarter were found but were buried as "Unknowns", and the remaining bodies - one quarter, roughly - were never found at all.

edit : Norman, I've just come across an interesting analysis by the Belgian enthusiast Franky Bostyn, who has written a book about Passchendaele and Tyne Cot. He writes

that in Belgium 102,497 Commonwealth war dead have a known grave, and a further 102,336 are missing...note the almost exactly even split. Of the missing dead, 48,555 are interred as partly identified or unidentified : just under half of the missing. ... so the ratios for Flanders are very similar to those of Picardy.

The figures cited by Bostyn probably include 1939-45 as well, but these would account for a tiny fraction, since 101,792 of the 102,336 missing apertain to 1914-1918.

he concludes:

For every four Commonwealth dead there are two buried with an identified headstone, one with an unidentified headstone, who is commemorated on a memorial to the missing and one who is in fact still missing on the battlefield and only commemorated on a memorial.

Phil (PJA)

[roel22]

I've always found the number of soldiers still missing in Flanders quite shocking. Over 50.000 Commonwealth, and very likely almost as many (if not more) Germans. Add to that missing French and Belgians as well, and there you are with a staggering 100.000+ for a region with about 40.000 inhabitants...

Roel

[Seadog]

Very many thanks for your responses, this is much appreciated.

Regards

Norman

[phil andrade]

I've always found the number of soldiers still missing in Flanders quite shocking. Over 50.000 Commonwealth, and very likely almost as many (if not more) Germans. Add to that missing French and Belgians as well, and there you are with a staggering 100.000+ for a region with about 40.000 inhabitants...

Roel

More Germans...surely ?

If one quarter of the Commonwealth dead in Flanders were not recovered, I would have thought that the proportion of unrecovered German dead was significantly higher. As it is, 130,000 Geman dead from 1914-1918 are interred in military cemeteries in Belgium; it has been implied that perhaps another 90,000 were not recovered.

Phil (PJA)

[roel22]

I agree 50.000 missing Germans is absolutely on the safe side. Without being able to prove it, I believe activities to recover the dead were mostly aimed at finding the remains of Allied soldiers. In the immediate years after the war pressure was high to clear the old battlefields, because families of the fallen soldiers wanted to visit the graves of their loved ones. Under such circumstances... who would you start looking for first?

Roel

[phil andrade]

Yes, of course, Roel...and the price of losing a war is to be denied access and recovery of dead on a scale that is accorded to the victors.

I imagine that, in many cases, embittered Franco - Belgian farmers, trying to restore their pulverised land, were none too respectful of German soldiers' remains.

Phil (PJA)

[roel22]

I know Phil...my great-grandfather (the man in my avatar) most likely still lies in the field where he was buried in a massgrave by his comrades. I met the farmer who had been living next to this field since early 1920. According to him no remains had been found; he didn't know of any searches that had been conducted.

Roel

[phil andrade]

Your great grandfather fell in the Kemmel sector, then Roel ?

The French were swept of that hill in April, 1918, and their dead from that action - several thousand - are interred in an ossuary there.

I was terribly impressed by the "teutonic" atmosphere of the buildings and the restaurants on top of Mount Kemmel. It's almost as if the whole place is a shrine to the German warriors - I think they were specially trained "Alpine" troops - who captured the position.

Perhaps a devotee will petition to discover and excavate the German mass graves there, just as the Australian Greek gentleman did so for the men of Fromelles.

Phil (PJA)

[dfaulder]

Roel previously responded (posts 6 and 8) to a post I made pointing out that the trench (near Vierstraat) that my grandfather probably last climbed out of before being killed may well be the trench where his Great Grandfather was buried.

David

[phil andrade]

Roel previously responded (posts 6 and 8) to a post I made pointing out that the trench (near Vierstraat) that my grandfather probably last climbed out of before being killed may well be the trench where his Great Grandfather was buried.

David

Goodness Gracious ! This is really something, isn't it ?

Phil (PJA)

[dfaulder]

Yes, those posts reminded me that there were two sides that formed the context to the research I was doing on my Grandfather.

David

[divadnosae]

I hope this is not to morbid a question, but ........

My Great Uncle Arthur Eason MGC was killed 21st March 1918 at Operation Michael. He was never found. In his battle, as it was a retreat, I presume when killed, colleagues had little time to bury fallen colleagues so, did they go back at some stage or would the Germans out of respect bury them or in most cases were they left to the elements. What was procedure at this time? It may be my GU Arthur was blown to smithereens and nothing was left anyway, but I am curious as some of us less knowledgeable would like to think they were buried where they fell, even if that place has never been found. (To date)

I know he is commerated at the Pozireres Cemetery

In Memory of

ARTHUR EASON

Private 21679

18th Battalion, Machine Gun Corps (Infantry)

who died on

Thursday, 21st March 1918

[kenf48]

I hope this is not to morbid a question, but ........

My Great Uncle Arthur Eason MGC was killed 21st March 1918 at Operation Michael. He was never found. In his battle, as it was a retreat, I presume when killed, colleagues had little time to bury fallen colleagues so, did they go back at some stage or would the Germans out of respect bury them or in most cases were they left to the elements. What was procedure at this time? It may be my GU Arthur was blown to smithereens and nothing was left anyway, but I am curious as some of us less knowledgeable would like to think they were buried where they fell, even if that place has never been found. (To date)

It depends on where and when the casualty died, for example simple hygiene at medical facilities dictated bodies should be buried as quickly as possible, one account by an RAMC officer records how he took it on himself to bury the British dead around a new position. The same officer recounts how German soldiers were simply removed from occupied trenches and dumped, and we must assume the same occurred to the British. Of course this could only take place later, while troops waited for a counter attack they shared the space with the dead, at Gallipolli this went on for weeks.

When he first went to the Western Front the war artist Sir William Orpen was shocked by the number of unburied and partly buried bodies of both men and horses decomposing on the Western Front. After the war he was asked if he could paint the Somme from memory, and claimed that was easy to do but he could never recapture the smell. In a letter to a friend he recalls how three weeks after a battle an attempt was made to bury the dead but notes, 'mud was thrown over them, no attempt was made to cover them' , a scene he later depicted in 'The Mad Woman of Douai'. To some critics this shows the link between insanity and the bodies, the memory of which drove Orpen to alcoholism and early death. Like other artists and photographers from 1917 he was subject to censorship under DORA and it was impossible to show pictures of the dead as it was felt this would 'aid the enemy'.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2003/apr/19/featuresreviews.guardianreview31

Other accounts, describe how soldiers would find their way in the trenches especially nearer the front line using the corpses as landmarks. These could not be buried as it was only when a battlefield was consolidated and free from artillery and sniper fire the dead could be buried, even then it could often only be done at night. It's not for nothing the 'place names' used by the soldiers often reflect this. Men were bribed with extra rum ration to move and bury the dead who had been out there for weeks. All the time cemeteries were captured and recaptured, shelled or dug over. New communication trenches were dug and at least one account tells of this activity opening a French mass grave.

I think it was one of the reason. veterans were reluctant to talk about their experience, it must have been impossible to describe and no comfort to the bereaved. They often dealt with it by black humour. There is a persistent myth recounted in 'Somme Mud' of soldiers 'shaking hands with the dead' or the extremities protruding from the ground 'for luck', as they moved up the front.

For many more though the experience could only be blotted out by alcohol and led to lasting psychological damage as described in the above article.

Ken

[Jack Sheldon]

When calculating likely percentages of British unknowns buried in CWGC cemeteries we should remember that of those 'Known unto God', a significant percentage will be known by Him to be German.

Jack

[dfaulder]

When calculating likely percentages of British unknowns buried in CWGC cemeteries we should remember that of those 'Known unto God', a significant percentage will be known by Him to be German.

Jack

I often think it is a great pity that we do not have an inventory of the "unknowns" detailing what is known. It was not until I visited that I realised how many cases there are where a lot is known. You can get the full range of unknowns in one cemetery (e.g. The Suffolk, near Vierstraat) from:

• An unknown soldier of the Great War, to
• Unknown Corporal of the Great War, York and Lancaster Regiment died 26 April 1918

You almost need a "Google Street View" style drive-by of every grave to enable the vast exercise to be done.

David

[ianw]

When calculating likely percentages of British unknowns buried in CWGC cemeteries we should remember that of those 'Known unto God', a significant percentage will be known by Him to be German.

Jack

A fact that I had not considered before you raised it, Jack. Thanks.

[ianw]

You almost need a "Google Street View" style drive-by of every grave to enable the vast exercise to be done.

David

I presume that the CWGC will have such a comprehensive database of each cemetery listing the rank and regiment of all the unknowns and all the personal inscriptions.

[kenf48]

A fact that I had not considered before you raised it, Jack. Thanks.

er I think we can file that under 'speculation' rather than 'fact'

Ken

[Jack Sheldon]

Ken

I am afraid you are wrong. As has been pointed out, the War Graves Commission always provided maxium possible identification on the headstones. So it is quite common to see inscriptions such as 'A Corporal of the Black Watch', 'An Australian Soldier of the Great War' etc. 'Known unto God' means just what it says - no closer identification was possible and one set of bones is very much like another if it is not accompanied by shreds of uniform or whatever. If you look into the ossuaries at Verdun, you are looking at French and German remains totally intermingled. If you look at an unknown solder in a British cemetery it is impossible to determine his nationality - hence my point.

Jack

[phil andrade]

The story of the Fromelles internments suggests - to my mind anyway - that the Germans went to greater pains to bury the dead - freind or foe - than the Allies.

When, in April 1918, the Passchendaele sector was relinquished by the British, the Germans were aghast at the tens of thousands of unburied corpses that still lay exposed after six months. Hindenburg - or was it Ludendorff ?- wrote that this was an "unspeakably revolting spectacle".

Is this indicative of a different attitude between the two sides ? Would the Germans have made a greater effort to bury the multitude of decaying corpses, or were the conditions in that sector of the front so dire and deadly that nobody was afforded the chance to do the job ?

I should imagine that most of those dead alluded to are commemorated at Tyne Cot.

Regards, Phil

[phil@basildon]

The story of the Fromelles internments suggests - to my mind anyway - that the Germans went to greater pains to bury the dead - freind or foe - than the Allies.

When, in April 1918, the Passchendaele sector was relinquished by the British, the Germans were aghast at the tens of thousands of unburied corpses that still lay exposed after six months. Hindenburg - or was it Ludendorff ?- wrote that this was an "unspeakably revolting spectacle".

Is this indicative of a different attitude between the two sides ? Would the Germans have made a greater effort to bury the multitude of decaying corpses, or were the conditions in that sector of the front so dire and deadly that nobody was afforded the chance to do the job ?

I should imagine that most of those dead alluded to are commemorated at Tyne Cot.

Regards, Phil

The Germans buried some of their dead in mass graves in much the same way they buried the allied dead at Fromelles. When I visited Langemark last year there was a notice to this effect. It also seemed to me that there was a greater proportion of unknowns among the German dead.

[SiegeGunner]

The Germans buried some of their dead in mass graves in much the same way they buried the allied dead at Fromelles.

The Germans buried their dead in mass graves when they had a mass of dead to bury. This photo shows the four L-shaped burial pits forming a square in which RIR 21 (which bore the brunt of the battle) buried its dead at Beaucamps after the battle of Fromelles. Officers and Vizefeldwebel were buried in the middle of the square. There are no 'unknowns'.

[kenf48]

As has been pointed out, the War Graves Commission always provided maxium possible identification on the headstones. So it is quite common to see inscriptions such as 'A Corporal of the Black Watch', 'An Australian Soldier of the Great War' etc. 'Known unto God' means just what it says - no closer identification was possible and one set of bones is very much like another if it is not accompanied by shreds of uniform or whatever. If you look into the ossuaries at Verdun, you are looking at French and German remains totally intermingled. If you look at an unknown solder in a British cemetery it is impossible to determine his nationality - hence my point.

Jack

The point is neither we, nor anyone else know the origin of the remains, therefore how can the numbers be described as 'a significant percentage'?

It's meaningless and not a fact, it could be a small percentage or a large percentage, it could be all of them or none of them. A fact has supporting evidence, a more accurate description would be 'a number of the unidentified burials tended by the CWGC may be those of enemy combatants, but we can only speculate as to the number'.

Ken