Help with an Imperial Yeomanry QSA

[Terry]

I am awaiting the arrival of a pair of medals to Frederick Charles Hagell which were on ebay. There are several questions about the pair which I will have to address when they arrive, but briefly the medals are:

- QSA (Cape Colony, South Africa 1902,Orange River Colony) to 38117 Pte.F.C.Hagell, 27th Bn.,Imp. Yeo.

- LSGC (GeoV) to 1851807 Spr.F.C.Hagell,RE

Obviously the Orange River Colony clasp is a tailor's copy.Is any member aware of just what clasps the 27th earned in South Africa?

I checked the National Archives for a Medal Index Card for F.C.Hagell, and couldn't find one. Possibly, he only served in the UK 1914-18 and received no medals, or could he have earned the LSGC in some other way? Another thought is that it is a father-son pair. By the way, the seven-digit RE service number is appropriate for the sappers, although I am not sure when these numbers went into effect.I am puzzled as to how a Yeomanry man earned a regular LSGC later while not earning any medals for the Great War.

Any assistance would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Terry

[wainfleet]

Terry

I don't know for certain but the QSA clasp entitlement sounds pretty credible to me. The 27th Bn were the first of the third contingent (if you exclude the reenlisted 25th and 26th Bns) to arrive in SA, turning up in late May 1902, too late to see any active service. As far as I know only one of the third contingent battalions, the 34th, has a published history, which describes mainly policing duties. So you are unlikely to find out much more about the 27th Bn unless you happen to turn up an unpublished memoir.

As regards the LSGC and absence of GW medals, I can only guess that he was origianlly a County Yeoman or served in some other volunteer unit prior to enlisting in 27th Bn and subsequently became unfit, or perhaps died, before the War.

Best wishes,

W.

[Terry]

Thanks for your reply,W. I am stumped trying to figure out how he could acquire eighteen years of service for the LSGC, but I guess anything is possible.Terry

[teejay65]

Hi Terry, in the Findmypast 1911 census records there is a Fredrick Charles Hagwell ,born in 1876( age 35), listed as "Military Overseas". If you think this is your man have a look at the 1911 census records in the Findmypast web site, to find out where he was & which regiment.

Regards, Tom

[eyman]

Terry

The 7 digit number on the LSGC medal suggests a post WW1 award - it is in the RE block issued in 1920 under Army Order 338/1920. Thus ample time for him to have racked up 18 years after leaving the Imperial Yeomanry, even if his Boer War service didn't count. There seem to be service papers for a brother, Charles, who also served in RE, on Ancestry - send me a personal message and I'll email the page that refers to a brother "Fred" in the Royal Engineers who is probably the Frederick Hagell who witnessed Charles' wedding in 1898. (Charles was 29637, served 22 years from 1896 to 1918 but only three years in Gibraltar before the war, so no WW1 medals. He received the LSGC in 1914.)

Frederick might appear in the 1901 census as a 25 year old groom, born Willsborough (?), Kent, boarding at 29 Westfield Rd, Surbiton. His profession ties in with having joined the IY. He would have been well into his 40s before picking up his long service medal and still only a Sapper!

Fredk Charles's birth was registered in 3rd Q 1875, Maidstone district; married 1st Q 1908, also Maidstone; and died in 4th Q 1931 in Maidstone, aged only 54.

There should be IY service papers for Frederick at the National Archives in WO128.

It seems a perfectly correct group, if rather unusual - although as we see from his brother's service with the RE, single LSGC is not in itself unusual to this corps

Ian

[David B]

No problem with the LSGC. My grandfather received his in 1903 after 18 years in the RA/RGA, the only time he went overseas was to Gibraltar in 1902-05. Was his sole medal

prior to re-entry into the RGA 1914-19 following retirement.

David

No problem with the LSGC. My grandfather received his in 1903 after 18 years in the RA/RGA, the only time he went overseas was to Gibraltar in 1902-05. Was his sole medal

prior to re-entry into the RGA 1914-19 following retirement.

David

[clive_hughes]

Just a note of caution: "Orange River Colony" does sometimes appear as a QSA bar, but they are unofficial manufactures post-Boer War period, after the area's title was changed. The official bar reads "Orange Free State". You'd need to see his QSA medal roll entry to determine if he was awarded one for OFS and was just replacing a lost bar with one from a military tailor's, or whether he'd awarded ORC to himself!

L.L.Gordon's British Battles and Medals (4th Edn, 1971) gives no constituent companies for the 27th Bn. IY but they received 417 QSAs. They had Cape Colony, SA 1901 and SA 1902 as possible bars. Regimental numbers went up to 44575 on the Roll.

LST_164

Edit: sorry, I just realised you'd already worked out the "tailor's copy" angle!

[wainfleet]

L.L.Gordon's British Battles and Medals (4th Edn, 1971) gives no constituent companies for the 27th Bn. IY but they received 417 QSAs. They had Cape Colony, SA 1901 and SA 1902 as possible bars. Regimental numbers went up to 44575 on the Roll.

The 27th Bn did not get to SA until May 1902, so SA 1901 could not have been earned while serving with this Bn.

[Carmania]

1911 Census: Harrismith, Orange Free State, Frederick Charles Hagell, Sapper, Royal Engineers, 35 years of age, born Maidstone Kent, occupation: engine driver.

Aled

[Terry]

Thanks fellows for all the extra details. I am gradually developing a mental file on the fellow and I haven't even received the medals yet!

Cheers,

Terry