stephen p nunn Posted 17 October , 2010 Share Posted 17 October , 2010 Having a spare Sunday afternoon, my wife and I just had a quick look around a local antiques centre. There was a deactivated 1912 SMLE for sale. The stock was a bit dark but all in all it looked good. Didn't get the chance to match up the serial numbers but the chap told me he wanted £450 for it - then £400. What do pals think? Is that a reasonable price and are there other pitfalls/things to look out for? Many thanks. SPN Maldon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 17 October , 2010 Share Posted 17 October , 2010 I cannot comment on the price as I am not up-to-date on UK deact. prices. however I know of a functional 1912 BSA made Enfield for sale in the USA for $350.00 (currently about 220 pounds sterling) if that is a point of reference, although I am not sure it really is. everything is really about condition and how much you want it! Things to look for - is it all matching (numbers - on bolt, receiver, barrel, underside of rear sight (is the rear sight windage adjustable?), nose-cap and possibly wooden forend - just behind nosepiece on underside) is barrel date original ? (you will have to look under the rear handgaurd - just clipped in place to see this) Is it in original configuration (this is unlikely...) but if it is it will have a volley sight - peep under the safety and the dial/pointer on the left of the forearm and also a cut-off above the magazine I would bet these are not present - indicating replacement wood/refurbishment. (It will have been made as a MkIII, check the marking on the wrist to see if there is an asterisk present...if it is it will be the result of a later refinishing. It should have the slot in the receiver for the cut-off but if it has had later wood installed then this will likely be covered. A 1912 would also originally have had the round "top hat" style cocking piece - not the flat slab sided version. FR / FTR or perhaps MA/date on the left of the wrist indicate later refinishing (Factory thorough refinish = FTR) Is there a large screw running transverse through the fore-end from left to right - if so this is almost certainly a rifle that has seen service in India (although not absolutely certainly) are all the "fingers" present on the handguards? absence is common on rifles that saw later Indian service (they are fragile and break so were cut off) Does the rear of the foreend have a metal brace around it? (looks like a flat metal insert at the wrist of the rifle like on No4 enfields)if so this is Indian wood as no one else used them. None of these things make it less "real" and are indicative of a long career - but if your interest is in a rifle as it would have been in 1912 or in WWI then these are things to consider. Which manufacturer is it (this will be on the wrist. Enfield, BSA, LSA Co?) Does it have a stock disc present - if so are there unit markings on it? (these are easily replaced, swapped so may not be indicative of much - but are nice!) Which version of the magazine is present? is it numbered (if it is again strongly suggests Indian usage as they commonly did number mags whereas others did not) Have a look at the receiver and barrel knox form - note markings - these may indicate ownership (arrow in a U= South Africa, in a D= Australia, in C = Canada), two arrows head to head = sold out of service, does it have civilian proof stamps on it?... If you can check the serial it should probably have U,V,X,Z, or A prefixes if Enfield, U or V if BSA and L if LSA Co. If you have or can stick up a picture or two it might help Hope this helps get you thinking - perhaps someone else can help with the UK pricing of deact.s Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 18 October , 2010 Share Posted 18 October , 2010 Chris thats the most comprehensive and valuable buyers guide I have seen and would make an excellent basis for an article in one of the magazines such as the Armourer. There seems to be a few early SMLE's appearing in general antiques rooms, I have seen a couple at Hemswell and Rotherham and all for the same type of money £350 - 450, possibly originating from the same source, WWA. I would be very surprised if it had any matching numbers, and on that basis and with a bit of flannel go back to the dealer with the information above, suck your teeth, give a knowledgeable wry smile and offer 200 quid which I guess is what he paid for it unless he is selling it on commission. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen p nunn Posted 18 October , 2010 Author Share Posted 18 October , 2010 Fantastic advice Chris (and Mick). Thank you so much. I need to go and have another look and talk £sss with the chap. Best regards. SPN Maldon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 19 October , 2010 Share Posted 19 October , 2010 I would be very surprised if it had any matching numbers, and on that basis and with a bit of flannel go back to the dealer with the information above, suck your teeth, give a knowledgeable wry smile and offer 200 quid which I guess is what he paid for it unless he is selling it on commission. Fantastic advice Chris (and Mick). Thank you so much. I need to go and have another look and talk £sss with the chap. Maldon, before offering the chap £200 as Mick suggested, I feel I should point out that even fairly bog standard wartime made MkIII* SMLE's in largely original condition tend to easily fetch high £200's at present. Even a somewhat messed about pre-war one would likely match that, and one in anything like original condition will easily top that. Unless the dealer is fairly out of touch or in need of a quick sale they might send you away with a flea in your ear if you make what could be considered a very low offer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 19 October , 2010 Share Posted 19 October , 2010 As I said - I cannot really comment as to price. However FWIW my reading of various sources (Skennerton, Stratton etc) suggested that: Enfield produced perhaps 100,000 MkIII rifles between 1907 and 1912 (@30,000 in 1912) as opposed to about 2 million rifles during the war. BSA produced @30,000 from 1910-1913 as opposed to about a million wartime dated rifles (MkIII and MkIII*) LSA figures are a minefield but most sources suggest about 430,000 (1907-1918 MkIII and MkIII*) So obviously comparative scarcity value alone would add to the value of a pre war dated rifle as Andrew suggests. Chris PS thanks for the comment Mick. I have actually been working on something along those lines, trying to restrict it to 1 page as a sort of "crib notes" for potential SMLE buyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 19 October , 2010 Share Posted 19 October , 2010 Maldon, before offering the chap £200 as Mick suggested, I feel I should point out that even fairly bog standard wartime made MkIII* SMLE's in largely original condition tend to easily fetch high £200's at present. Even a somewhat messed about pre-war one would likely match that, and one in anything like original condition will easily top that. Unless the dealer is fairly out of touch or in need of a quick sale they might send you away with a flea in your ear if you make what could be considered a very low offer! Before offering? what do you mean, give in before you have even started the battle?! offer it, be strong and confident I'm not suggesting you will get it for 200 but its a great starting point for a discussion. There are a lot of dealers now who look pathetic and say the items are priced for the market and won't knock anything off even for trade, rubbish - we're not here to keep them in velvet smoking jackets, cigars and brandy. I've demonstrated a few times on here that the dealer isn't necessarily an expert and research pays off. Does anyone here actually pay the asking price for anything, I even haggle in the CO-OP. Mick (ps sorry John B, I don't believe for one minute you wear a smoking jacket) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 19 October , 2010 Share Posted 19 October , 2010 Before offering? what do you mean, give in before you have even started the battle?! offer it, be strong and confident I'm not suggesting you will get it for 200 but its a great starting point for a discussion. Sorry Mick, I personally can't agree with most of that - I don't see my relationship with any of the militaria dealers I've dealt with over the years as some sort of battle that must be won at any cost, and if I had I'm sure I would have lost out in the long run in that those I've carefully built up a good working relationship with now know my likes and will often point out items they've acquired which might be of interest to me, which I value more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 19 October , 2010 Share Posted 19 October , 2010 Andrew I have relationships with a few militaria and quite a few general antique dealers and if there was one attempting to charge me 450 quid for the item that started this thread and then drop it quickly by 50 quid, then there is plenty of room for negotiation. If punters are rolling over and having their tummies stroked no wonder prices are where they are. You may be willing, as I am on occassion, to pay the price asked to have that special relationship which allows the dealer to understand what you collect and hold a copy of your wants list, but that is more of a professional friendship and a trust that has developed. You can't have that with every dealer for every item and there are a hell of a lot of bad ones. Perhaps the word battle was a bit hard, maybe a skirmish. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 19 October , 2010 Share Posted 19 October , 2010 Andrew I have relationships with a few militaria and quite a few general antique dealers and if there was one attempting to charge me 450 quid for the item that started this thread and then drop it quickly by 50 quid, then there is plenty of room for negotiation. That I do agree with, but I still feel a starting offer at half of an already reduced price which (given that we don't know how original/complete the rifle in question is or how desperate/knowledgable the dealer is, so I'm assuming something reasonably good/intact still from a informed/non-desperate dealer) isn't as heavy as some top dealers would charge falls into the "cheeky" category myself. On the previous assumption, I'd have suggested an opening offer nearer the £275/£300 mark, with the expectation it wouldn't be accepted, and some further haggling would be needed. You can't have that with every dealer for every item and there are a hell of a lot of bad ones. I usually find the "bad" dealers are the ones it pays most to have a good relationship with - when they miss something interesting, it tends to be something most worthwhile! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen p nunn Posted 3 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2011 Called in to see this dealer again yesterday. He still has the 1912 SMLE - now offered at £380. Mrs. Maldon quickly ushered me out! SPN Maldon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinhat47 Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 I'm waiting to see what you come back with, Maldon. You guys are lucky. It's tough loving British militaria and being an American in the southern U.S. ... so hard to find! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 I'm waiting to see what you come back with, Maldon. You guys are lucky. It's tough loving British militaria and being an American in the southern U.S. ... so hard to find! However, a fully live 1912 SMLE can easily be had for under $500 today. The first SMLE I bought in 1993 was from a Roses discount store in GA (1917 Lithgow) and it cost me $37.00 out of the door.... Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinhat47 Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Incredible! My mom used to take me to Roses all the time when I was little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Incredible! My mom used to take me to Roses all the time when I was little. And here it is: After 18 years I still can't bring myself to replace the handguard...this was the one that started it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 However, a fully live 1912 SMLE can easily be had for under $500 today. The first SMLE I bought in 1993 was from a Roses discount store in GA (1917 Lithgow) and it cost me $37.00 out of the door.... Chris Oh if only we knew then..... I've got a 1980 edition of Antique Arms and Militaria in front of me - All shooters. P14 £40 SMLE with vickers barrel, marked regulated by Fulton (Bisley Armourers) £40 Long Lee BSA 1901 £50 SMLE 1916 BSA £45 Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Oh if only we knew then..... I've got a 1980 edition of Antique Arms and Militaria in front of me - All shooters. P14 £40 SMLE with vickers barrel, marked regulated by Fulton (Bisley Armourers) £40 Long Lee BSA 1901 £50 SMLE 1916 BSA £45 Mick Yeah I know, but in 1980 I was saving up for nearly a year to get the 11 pounds I needed for the Hornby Flying Scotsman! THIS SITEis a good resource for such discussions...and for a play. by their reckoning: In 2009 (2010 figs not yet available), the relative worth of £40.00 from 1980 was: £128.00 using the retail price index £125.00 using the GDP deflator £198.00 using the average earnings £218.00 using the per capita GDP £239.00 using the share of GDP I am not sure but I get the impression "live" rifles may in some instances be cheaper than deactivated ones in the UK as a result of the far smaller market/demand? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 I think you are right Chris about live rifles being cheaper than de-acts, ezpecially for the more common items like No.4s and Yugo K98s. As for prices, I will let you children reminisce about 1980, when my kids were approaching their teenage years! I bought my first rifle (a P.14) in 1962 and it cost me £6. I was given an off-ticket SMLE in first class condition and I had to pay £7 for an Artillery Luger. However, all that is meaningless when one considers the amount one earned then. Cheers TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen p nunn Posted 4 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Be great to turn the clock back and buy up this stuff! Perhaps if I win the Lottery Mrs Maldon might turn a blind eye to a purchase (or two!). Regards to all for your responses. SPN Maldon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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