WW1 SMLEs Still In Use

[PhilB]

An American friend tells me that, according to a radio interview in the US, there are many old weapons used by the insurgents in Afghanistan, including WW1 SMLEs. It would be sad to think that our soldiers were being harmed by WW1 weapons made by us but surely, if there are any WW1 rifles (or other weapons) they could only be a very small proportion when later weapons have been so available?

[SiegeGunner]

We hear a lot of reports about Taliban snipers - what are they armed with, I wonder? With so many variants of the SMLE made over such a long period of time, including more recent manufacture in calibres other than .303, it would be very surprising if there were none in circulation at some level in Afghanistan. Taking a census might be difficult, but presumably someone's intelligence service knows what types of SAA the Taliban is procuring, and in what volumes.

Incidentally, to try and get double value out of this thread, could one of our SMLE specialists tell us whether Pakistan has a factory equivalent to Ishapore that made or at least re-worked SMLEs after partition.

[Radlad]

A television documentary the other night showed a deceaced Afghani with a Mauser rifle (K98?) . There has long been a small cottage industry along the border with Pakistan where copies of many arms are made for local use using hand tool alone. Original rifles are (were?) prized as patterns. I think there was an article called 'Gunsmiths of the Kohat Pass' in the early 1970's in 'Guns Review' magazine which showed the making of a copy SMLE completely made without the use of powered machinery.

I remember this article because the skill and craftsmanship of these articles was astounding to me then. Modern engineers in the western world can't seem to acieve anything if their computers break down. Handwork is a skill we seem to be rapidly losing.

[centurion]

Whilst not an SMLE expert I do recall that when working in Lahore some years ago being told that counterfeit SMLEs were still being made on a small scale in workshops in the country. These were, it seemed, complete with fake proof marks etc. There were certainly plenty of SMLEs in evidence (although genuine or not I couldn't say) - our private security guard had one. I was told that the SMLE was highly regarded as a sniping weapon in the Tribal Areas hence the counterfeiting but that the lands in the fakes wore out very quickly.

Once having to deliver a bid to a ministry in Muscat (Oman) during the middle of Ramadan I had to step over a sleeping guard in the entrance, I did this very carefully as the sleeping man was cradling an SMLE. I've also seen them in the Yemen. They do seem to have lingered on in a number of places.

[4thGordons]

There are undoubtedly SMLEs knocking around in large numbers in Afghanistan although from all of my friends who have served there it would seem they are not frequently used by insurgents who have far more modern weaponry. However hillsmen, tribesmen etc will still be seen carrying SMLEs. The markets are also full both these and far older weapons such as Martini-Henry's 1853 Enfields, Sniders and all sorts of other things - I have even seen a Russian Berdan rifle. Many of these are a mixture of locally made and original parts...quite a number have come onto the US Market in recent years as they have been brought home by service men and women. Until about a year or so ago there was virtually no restriction on what was brought home and I have seen some very interesting rifles of WWI vintage. However about 18 months ago the US military started preventing soldiers from bringing (or mailing) non antique weapons and this cut the flow drastically as they seemed to define this as all cartridge weapons. Muzzle loaders were still possible to ship and a good friend sent me a P1853 Enfield rifle.

The whole situation is complicated by the indigienous gun-makers in the region who have always made copies of weapons. These have absolutely flooded the US market in the past five years and are generically referred to as "Khyber Pass" weapons. Many of these copy early weapons such as the SMLE and Martini and their quality is highly variable. Everything is copied down to proof marks etc - although frequently there are spelling errors (reversed N seems common) and style errors (wrong crowns/dates etc) in the stamping that make them stand out like a sore thumb. While some are very sophisticated skilled copies, most are relatively crude 1:1 models which would be very hazardous to shoot. Some are a mix of original and indigienously produced parts, I have one (which I bought for a couple of original components on it - volley sights) and can provide photos if interested - close inspection reveals all sorts of problems - inclding a barrel which is bored WAY off center. I suppose these may function - but I am very certain they would not be accurate and I wouldn't fire one with a 10ft string!

WWI vintage SMLEs are still in use in India with paramilitary forces of various types, in fact footage of the Mumbai attacks showed a railway policeman returning fire with an enfield at one point. Some of these are undoubtedly WWI vintage but as India produced the SMLE as late as 1988 many are not. There is also a version of the SMLE in 7.62mm made in the late 1960s called the 2A or 2A1 which uses the 7.62mm Nato round (.308). Although many of these rifles have been sold off as surplus there are undoubtedly many still in circulation - both officially and in the tribal areas.

Pakistan produced some No4 rifles at the Pakistan Ordinance Factory (POF)NorthWest of Islamabad and reworked many more - but I believe (I will check my references) that they did not manufacture (I am certain of this) or refinish (I am less certain) SMLEs.

Chris

[4thGordons]

For reference: Here are a few snaps of a "Khyber Pass" Enfield copy. UK laws regarding import, proofing etc are probably strict enough to prevent such rifles getting int cirulation as the genuine article. In the US this is not likely to be the case and I have already seen parts from these rifles sold as "genuine"

You can see the off centre bore, the odd style fore-sight, spurious inspection marks, odd style of numbering and crude shaping of parts.

Note the Nosecap/bayonet mount has no slots to mount the bayonet

This particular one does not have any wrist stamping (model etc) but many do.I have appended an example of spurious markings and a "volley sight dial and pointer" (fake) below.

crudely made representation of a volley sight pointer

Having said all this - some of the rifles are far better finished than this example and some appear to use a mix of genuine and indigenous parts. There are undoubtedly some very interesting and genuine WWI rifles in Afghanistan.

Chris

[scottmarchand]

good video of a Pakistani arms market - note the stack of lewis guns!!

http://www.vbs.tv/full_screen.php?s=DGFE2305DC&sc=1363196

[4thGordons]

good video of a Pakistani arms market - note the stack of lewis guns!!

http://www.vbs.tv/full_screen.php?s=DGFE2305DC&sc=1363196

Ummmm not when I click on it there isn't - there is a Norwegian "Black Metal" (?) Band playing in Chile!?

[SiegeGunner]

I see a series of adverts followed by previews of upcoming Polish films. The link is evidently to a constantly changing programme.

[scottmarchand]

Sorry - Bad link, unless you like Norwegian metal...

here is a good one

[Edodowd]

An American friend tells me that, according to a radio interview in the US, there are many old weapons used by the insurgents in Afghanistan, including WW1 SMLEs. It would be sad to think that our soldiers were being harmed by WW1 weapons made by us but surely, if there are any WW1 rifles (or other weapons) they could only be a very small proportion when later weapons have been so available?

Just a few of the fakes around unfortunatly can still fire real ammunition against our own, back to the rifle, note the font, The rifle's manufacturer, date of assembly and its Mark can be found on the right side of the buttsocket (located under the closed bolt handle). this one is of a modern type shown on your picture.

Ed

[4thGordons]

Welcome to the forum Ed.

I am not sure which post you are responding to / commenting upon when you say "back to the rifle" etc. but you are correct, that the rifle I pictured would indeed chamber and probably detonate a live round. I would not want to be within 500yards of it if this was done however.

Related to the original thread topic of Enfields in use THIS RECENT ARTICLEmight be of interest!

Chris

[TonyE]

Just a few of the fakes around unfortunatly can still fire real ammunition against our own, back to the rifle, note the font, The rifle's manufacturer, date of assembly and its Mark can be found on the right side of the buttsocket (located under the closed bolt handle). this one is of a modern type shown on your picture.

Ed

To add further to Chris's questions, are you suggesting that the font used on the wrist of the rifle in his picture makes you think it is a "modern" Indian 2A1 rifle?

Regards

TonyE

[CroppyBoy1798]

I believe it was the Channel 4 program 'Dispatches' a month or more back that was following a U.S. regiment in Afghanistan, at one stage they were having a sniper issue, and lost three men I believe to this sniper in a couple of days. A subsequent clearout of the neighbouring village led to the sniper being 'dispatched', it did show him, and his weapon which was either a P14 or P17, couldnt tell. The troops passed it off as an '8mm Mauser'.

[Pete1052]

If the P14 or M17 rifle was actually captured I'm sure the troops were capable of reading the English-language markings on it. (We've had to lower our recruiting standards a bit, but not that much!)

[daggers]

A BBC news report from Afghaanistan last night showed a Queen Victoria era rifle, with her emblem, and a late 19C year which I cannot remember as it was getting near bed time.

I am no expert in small arms, despite having passed Cert A parts 1 & 2 with the SMLE, and the one shown was certainly older.

D

[Whitedog]

I observed No I Mk III*'s being used by police in Punta Gorda, Belize in 1988. I wasn't aware of their year of production however as I couldn't get close to them. Actually they were being pointed at me and I was being detained.

[Dan Brock]

The recent, and I might add, excellent documentary on the war in Afghanistan, Restrepo, shows an SMLE among a group of captured weapons.

It looks to be Great War to me but I am a bear of very little brain. It seems to to have a charger bridge and the forward-mounted rear sight.

It's also in sorry condition as its steel parts are nearly the same color as the wood.

It's hard to tell. It's only on-screen for a second or two - around 55 minutes in.

[Piorun]

If one watched Michael Palin's odyssies a few years back, one might recall his visit to a flourishing arsenal of custom gun makers in Pakistan who would turn out most credible working replicas of anything you wanted. They took great pride in the quality of their work. A

[DRoth137]

Rumor had it when I was there last year that there was a sea can full of Enfields at the ANP HQ in Kandahar City. I had an American MP Captain willing to take me on the hunt since he wanted one as well but we were pre-occupied thanks to insurgent snipers. My best find though was a Lee Metford and a Mauser used as door handles at one of our forward operating bases. But in the south of the Kandahar province, 303 ammo was scarce and pretty much all of our finds came up with Russian or Chinese 7.62 ammo, so I couldn't imagine the Taliban using SMLE's if they had access to them.

BTW, the British field guns are still at the traffic circle in Kandahar City. They looked like Armstrong guns but we never slower long enough to get a good look.

[Gunner Bailey]

I was told the other day that Lee-Metfords are still being made by the tribal gunsmiths. A sort of extension of grandfather's broom. Traditional family weapons that just keep on being made.

I wouldn't like to take on a Barratt with one!

John