Repatriation of Donated medals

[Paul Crilley]

Does anyone have any experience of recovering medals that have been 'donated' to museums.

The medals were given to the DLI Museum in Durham by my mothers sister, my aunt . It was always understood in the family that the medals were only on loan to the Museum for display.

My mother is now 91 and is concerned that the ownership of the medals will be lost when she passes on.

When I have approached them, (the Museum) they have stated that the medals were in fact a donation. But the medals are not even on display.

The medals were awarded to my Grandad, William Edmund Leftley and included the Medal Militaire.

What course of action is open to me?

Crilley

[John_Hartley]

Ask them for evidence that it was a donation.

When I similarly gave grandad's medals to a museum I was asked to sign a "donation form", I assume the DLI would have had something similar.

I presume, also, that to retrieve them, you would have to supply evidence that you were the rightful owner. This may be tricky unless you were the principal beneficiary of your aunt's estate.

[centurion]

I have heard of museums and art galleries taking a high handed approach and not just on WW1 material (there was a recent case of a municipal art gallery selling pieces that had been loaned and trousering the cash). If you have any written proof of the terms of the loan this might help but they sometimes take the approach of "so sue us - we have deeper pockets than you" an approach more appropriate to high stakes poker. If the items are of little cash value and you have convincing proof of the terms an approach to local news media might shame them into appropriate action but you would need convincing evidence.

[centurion]

One thing you might want to check is if they have still got them, given that they are not on display. a request to view perhaps and/or a freedom of information act request for any information pertaining to them might do the trick.

[AnthonyStaunton]

One thing you might want to check is if they have still got them, given that they are not on display. a request to view perhaps and/or a freedom of information act request for any information pertaining to them might do the trick.

This is very good advice.

Good museum practice these days is to have everything documented because the donor may not still have their copy of the donation documentation or has passed away and it becomes an issue for the estate. A relative without documentation or authority making an enquiry deserves a polite short shrift. I would suggest arming yourself with proper authority and making a formal application would be a better way to approach the museum. Sadly, when items are donated to a museum the donor often does not realise that they may be signing a donation form that states the items may never go on display or that the museum may have the right to lend sell or trade the items. The legal status of the museum should also be considered with special examination of what happens to the items if the museum is wound up or incorporated into another body. While I encourage donations to museums I would make sure your solicitor has examined the donation form.

[Gunner Bailey]

The basic rule should be that you never donate medals to museums unless they are an exceptionally good group that will be displayed. I'm sure thousands of medals from WW1 onwards have been loaned or domnated to museums in good faith, however these will never be displayed and in many cases are sold off after a period of time has passed. Other items just rust away on shelves and are eventually scrapped.

In this case I would certainly ask to see the medals, to ensure the museum still has them.

John

[auchonvillerssomme]

I agree with John, and would go one step further, how many pairs and trios do they need?

Mick

[horatio2]

Of course. Those naughty museums are holding all those pairs and trios that bona fide medal collectors "need".

[Gunner Bailey]

Of course. Those naughty museums are holding all those pairs and trios that bona fide medal collectors "need".

It would be nice if they offered them back to families. Often a family member will sell or give away medals someone else in the family would dearly love to have. My preference for medals is always to try to keep them in families, especially WW1 medals.

John

[nemesis]

Crilley I think that you do have a chance if no agreement in paper is in existance between the Museum and the Donor . But it could be a sticking point if it came to the legal beagles desks as Lawyers acting for the Museum will always find some way of defending the case.

The Royal Highlanders Museum in Perth have had unpleasant experiences of persons trying to recover family medals which had been donated in the past, they have adopted the same proceedure. Anyone handing any item to the museum must sign it over permanently . As other members have commented ,the vaults of the museums hold medals which will never see the light of day. As reguards keeping them in the family I 100% agree but, I have , just recently been asked to buy medals from a man who simply has no one else to leave them too.

good luck

m

[Stebie9173]

The museum should have an accessions register that lays out the terms in which items have been donated/loaned/etc., however my local musuem (that holds my great-grandfather's medals) cannot find the record of how/when/where they acquired them. Which apparently means they cannot do anything with them....

Steve.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Of course. Those naughty museums are holding all those pairs and trios that bona fide medal collectors "need".

I'm not a medal collector but see the lists and catalogues, surely there are surely enough medals on the market to fill collectors needs. How often does a museum or dealer come to that, advise that an item is of more value being kept in the family?

[Gunner Bailey]

As reguards keeping them in the family I 100% agree but, I have , just recently been asked to buy medals from a man who simply has no one else to leave them too.

good luck

m

Yes that happens to me too. When people bring WW1 medals to me I quiz them as to whether there is anyone in the family who would want them in the future. In a few cases there are no family members, but in a couple of cases they have hung onto them because their daughter (who has no interest) has a young son or daughter who may.

I'm probably an untypical dealer in this but I think it important named medal stay with families.

John

[Nigel Marshall]

It is of course imperative to ensure that prior to making demands for disclosure under the auspices of the Freedom of Information Act, it should be established that the museum you approach falls subject to the provisions of the act.

The big three for us, say, IWM, NAM, and Royal Armouries are subject to the act and will accept demands, however the status as charitable trusts of many military and local museums means that they may well not be subject to the act and demands for disclosure will be swept aside with a smile, and such a demand would also alert that museum to the fact that they may face a challenge over an item in their catalogue.

If you feel that you may face a battle to regain the medals, do all your homework first before writing your first letter. There is much to be said for the old standards of 'Keep the element of Surprise' and Forewarned is forearmed'.

I hope you get a break.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Tuntun]

If these medals/any medals are not particularly financially valuble then might you succeed in obtaining them by offering to make a cash donation if you could also prove a family connection?

Does anyone know if such an approach is likely to be/has been successful?

Martin

[centurion]

My suspicion would be either that they don't know where they are or they've already sold them (and possibly both). But then perhaps I'm a cynic!

[Old Owl]

My suspicion would be either that they don't know where they are or they've already sold them (and possibly both). But then perhaps I'm a cynic!

Cynical you maybe, but you're probably nearer to the truth than you think!!

Some 27 years ago I purchased the medals and plaque to a WW1 Officer, from a dealer in the north of England. After a couple of years I decided to write to the regimental museum to see if they could assist me with my research, they were most helpful in sending me various copies from the regimental history etc., they were unable to assist me however with a photo, but very kindly gave me the name and address of a relative of the officer(a retired army officer) who lived in the same area as the museum. I duly wrote to this gentleman and he was most helpful in lending me photographs, to copy, of the officer whom I was researching. He told me that this officer was his eldest brother and he was most apologetic that he could not supply more information because his elder sister had donated most of the items related to his brother to the regimental museum some years previously. He did not actually mention medals but I have always wondered if these were donated and later were sold 'out of the back door' so to speak? It is of course always possible that the family sold the medals to a dealer and so they came onto the market via a bona fide route---I suppose I'll never know?

Robert

[sutton-in-craven]

Well I agree with centurion and old owl.

In 2005 I bought a group of medals listed on ebay and eventually (in 2007) sold them back on ebay because they had been over-polished for my liking. This year I learned that this same medal group had been previously stolen from a museum (an inside job, one of the curators).

I have since been exonerated from any involvement in the theft of these medals. I had to provide documentation (ebay and bank transfer transactions etc) to the detective leading the investigation, showing that I bought this medal group in good faith unaware that they had been stolen.

So I echo what others have said - check firstly with the museum that they are still in possession of these medals, because they may well not be! Good luck.