Clasp & Roses again!

[verdun]

About six months ago I started a thread to try and find out how accurately the Medal Rolls and Medal Index Cards reflect the issuing of the Clasp and Roses to the '14 Star. From the correspondence that ensued, the received wisdom suggested that the rosette was never issued if the soldier had been killed, since he would never wear it.

However... I recently came across the MIC of Pte. Thomas Peacefull (said to be the inspiration behind the title of Michael Morpurgo's novel). The "real" Pte. Peacefull arrived in France on November 11th 1914 and died of wounds on June 4th 1915. Yet his MIC clearly shows that both Clasp and Roses were issued. Was this an anomaly?

[27thBN]

I have never seen the Clasp issued with out the roses on a MIC .So it was very much the norm

Cheers Tony

[SteveE]

I have never seen the Clasp issued with out the roses on a MIC .So it was very much the norm

I would beg to differ. It has always been my understanding that the Clasp was issued without the Roses if the soldier had died but, with the number of applications to be referenced and cross-referenced, I'm sure there will always be exceptions to the rule.

I've only had a quick look through a handful of MICs for 1914 casualties but all had an annotation for the clasp only, one example of which I've attached.

Regards

Steve

[NigelS]

This, from The Times of Thursday, December 18th 1919, may be of interest. (NB this is taken from a piece titled 'Clasps to 1914 Star - Awards to Naval Men' relating to the issue of an 'official order' from the Admiralty for the award, but I would suspect that similar orders would have been issued to the other services as well)

The clasp will be in bronze and will bear the inscription: ‘5th August – 22nd November 1914’. In undress uniform when ribands are worn, the grant of the clasp will be denoted by the wearing of a small silver rose in the centre of the riband. Two roses will be issued with each clasp. Provided the claims are approved by the Admiralty, the clasp will be issued to all officers and men of the Royal Navy, Royal Marines, Royal Naval Reserve, and Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve who were actually present on duty within range of the enemy’s mobile artillery between the dates mentioned.

The clasps

earned by officers and men who have died will be issued to their legatees or next-of-kin entitled to receive them.

So the official line, as previously suggested, does appear to indicate that only the clasp was to be issued if a man had died. I suppose that it's not impossible that roses could have been received by NoK, if they lived at what had been the awardees home address (as is likely to be the case with family members), had news of the death of a man who'd died close to the time of issue not reached the issuers before despatch. (Not something that should have occured with Peacefull who'd died long before an issue was possible though) Doubtless there would have been some errors made in both documentation and issues.

Edit: might the annotation '0 Clasp/2/3383' at the bottom right indicate the issue of the clasp alone; the 'Clasp & Roses' written under 'Medal' simply being a hand written section title, similar to that of 'Victory', 'British' & '14 Star'?

NigelS

[ulsterlad2]

I always thought that the Clasp & Roses if you were alive and Clasp alone if you had died was the 'rule'.

Just as another example of the clasp only mic. My gg unlce Joe (sig)

[headgardener]

Am I making a statement of the blindingly obvious when I say that there was no need to send a rose to a dead man's next of kin? The clasp would suffice because there was never going to be a ribbon bar on which to put the rose.

I agree with Nigel; I suspect that the issue of the clasp alone was the norm, but I'm sure that there were plenty of exceptions to the rule, especially if a man's death was not recorded on the medal roll, or if he died after the roll had been prepared (same thing, I guess....).

Edit; I notice that Peacefull's C&R were issued quite late ('23), so it may also have depended on whose desk his application landed on; some clerks may simply have more 'thorough' than others, or some may have been more familiar with the rules than others.

[verdun]

"Edit: might the annotation '0 Clasp/2/3383' at the bottom right indicate the issue of the clasp alone; the 'Clasp & Roses' written under 'Medal' simply being a hand written section title, similar to that of 'Victory', 'British' & '14 Star'?"

]

Great spot, Nigel! For my money, I'd go with your theory here. Many thanks. Peter

[Unknownsoldier]

I have a slip from the WD stating no roses will be issued (soldier had been KinA), this is the only official bit I've seen first hand.

[PhilB]

Am I making a statement of the blindingly obvious when I say that there was no need to send a rose to a dead man's next of kin? The clasp would suffice because there was never going to be a ribbon bar on which to put the rose.

The medals could be worn on the right breast by, say, a son or wife?

[archangel9]

I'm in the process of creating a database of casualties and including all details on the MIC's for each soldier. I've done a search through the database (a long way from complete but containing 1500 + records so far) and in no case do I find the Roses issued to a man who died.

John

EDIT: All 1500 have a qualifying date prior to 22/11/1914.

[headgardener]

The medals could be worn on the right breast by, say, a son or wife?

The medals, yes, but not a ribbon bar. Family members might certainly wear the medals, but I've never heard of any of them wearing a ribbon bar.

The rose was to be worn on a ribbon bar in order to denote entitlement to the clasp, thereby making it stand out from the comon-or-garden 14 or 15 star ribbons. Hence there being no need to send a rose to the family of a casualty; there would never be a ribbon bar on which to place it. You will find 14 stars with the rose sewn onto the ribbon rather than, or as well as, the bar. But that's not how it was intended to be worn.

Given that it was silver, I'd imagine there was also a large cost saving by not issuing an item that would never be used.

Edit; when I talk about a ribbon bar, I'm talking about the thin strip of medal ribbon(s) worn on the left breast in place of the medals themselves.

[PhilB]

You`re right! That`s probably why you`re a head gardener and I just do the weeding under my wife`s direction.

[headgardener]

You`re right! That`s probably why you`re a head gardener and I just do the weeding under my wife`s direction.

Ah....., Grasshopper, Even the humblest pupil shall one day be the master.

Try that one out on your wife sometime....!

[Michael Johnson]

Might it not be merely a slip of the pen? Brain dead clerk has written "Clasp & roses" ninety times, then does not notice the next card is for a casualty.

[archangel9]

Might it not be merely a slip of the pen? Brain dead clerk has written "Clasp & roses" ninety times, then does not notice the next card is for a casualty.

Have to agree with you there Michael. Clerical error. Easy done.

John

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The clerk for the original MIC has corrected the error himself, as pointed out in post #4 with O with a line through it cross referencing to the ammendment.