Are these soldiers in the Ox and Bucks Light Infantry?

[June Underwood]

Can anyone tell me anything about these uniforms? From knowing the source of the photos I think they could be in the Ox & Bucks LI and if so the man on the left could be Pte F C Hicks 28390 died 16 Aug 1917. The man on the right could be Cpl J C Whitehead 3118 died 11 Jul 1916. I have located both men on CWGC and SDGW.

The cap badge looks like the Ox & Bucks but I'm not sure what the scroll is below it.

At an exhibition recently I saw a similar uniform - this was blue. The cap badge was not visible as the cap was tucked into the epaulette. The scroll on the sleeve looked similar.

June

[CT-Guards]

I would have given them a dark blue colouring perhaps dark green, Light Infantry/ Rifles Regiment given the insignia on the cuff of the man on the right!

No expert by the way.

Given the 'Buckingham' stamp on the photo you may be close with the 'Ox & Bucks' link.

[Steven Broomfield]

I'd say pre-1908 Volunteers, judging by the badges. I'd stick my neck out and suggest the 1st Bucks Volunteer Rifle Corps (later the Bucks Battalion, Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry) as a possibility, given the photographer's location, but it is a lot of assumption.

[squirrel]

I'd agree with Mr Broomfield on this.

[Sepoy]

Is there any chance you can blow up the photograph to show the titles on the caps.

I am no expert on uniforms for this period, but the fact they are both armed with Martini Henry Rifles. makes it possible that this photo dates from the 1880s which would make the men a bit old for Great War service.

Sepoy

[Graham Stewart]

Superb - cracking photo of Bucks Rifle Volunteers c.1860. Grumpy would like the the look of this one considing one lad wears the classic RV shooting badge, which I believe was graded over distance.

[Steven Broomfield]

I must confess my first thought when I saw it was some form of para-military postmen.

[Kevin Tobin]

June,

Just to confirm what the others have said I have attached 2 photographs from the OBLI archives.

There is a very good article on the Buckinghamshire Rifle Volunteers in Bugle & Sabre II - available from SOFO.

The first photo is entitled "A group of mainly NCOs from the 1st Bucks Rifle Volunteers in camp at Bourne End in August 1879."

The second is a 1st Bucks R V Corps officer's shako as worn around 1870.

I must confess my first thought when I saw it was some form of para-military postmen.

Mr Broomfield how dare you insult the Ox & Bucks glorious history!!

[T8HANTS]

Martini-Henry's were not issued to RV's until the early 1880's, and following the Cardwell reforms there was Government pressure to the get the Corps out of their odd-ball uniforms, and dress more in line with the Line Infantry. So unless the Buck's RV's were one of those Corps who resisted, and retained their choice of uniform possibly no later than 1888, is my hunch.

G

[Kevin Tobin]

Quote -

1881 territorialisation - It was proposed that the Royal Bucks King's Own Militia become simply the 3rd Battalion Oxfordshire Light Infantry, a title the regiment declined to recognise. Equally the 1st Bucks Rifle Volunteers was supposed to be designated the 3rd Volunteer Battalion, Oxfordshire Light Infantry and as Weathered recorded, the War Office also proposed to:

"Change our uniform from our old dark grey to the more showy but less servicable scarlet, but I resisted both innovations - the first because we were the only battalion retaining the name of the historic County of Bucks - the second because of the enourmous cost of change and of the subsequent up-keep, for I had found that the average life of a Private's dark grey uniform was not less then six years- Much longer than the scarlet of the Oxfordshire & Berkshire Corps.

June - I have files on both Hicks and Whitehead.

[June Underwood]

Thank you all for your replies, photos and articles - extremely interesting and very different answers to what I expected. I had hoped it would be WW1 and that I might have been able to identify the soldiers in the photo, but now I have no idea who they could be!

From the censuses it seems that William Simmons was a photographer in Wells St, Buckingham from at least 1871 when he was aged 37 through to 1901, which fits in exactly with what everyone has suggested.

I'm still not sure what the actual letters are below the cap badge, though - even though the officer's shako is such a clear photo.

Thank you Kevin for mentioning the files on Hicks and Whitehead which I'm very interested in.

I'll send all this info to the person who sent me the photo. I'm sure they will be very appreciative.

June

[Steve Berridge]

Hi

The photograph would indeed appear to be of the 1st Bucks Rifle Volunteers, dark grey uniform with red facings, collars etc.

I would say that the photo is pre 1893 as at that date the spiked helmet and FS (side) cap were the regulation headdress for the unit.

The spiked helmet was soon replaced by the Riflemans Busby in full dress as the grey uniform became on the introduction of khaki to the BVRC in the early 1900’s.

The headdress worn with khaki was the slouch hat and FS cap.

When the territorial force was formed in 1908 the Bucks Rifle Volunteers became the Buckinghamshire Battalion of the Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry.

They had their own black maltese cross cap badge, grey rifles uniform, black buttons and regimental march.

Although officially part of a Light Infantry regiment they were never Light Infantry always remained a Rifle battalion.

Inter war they maintained their own identity and introduced KRRC style black and red badges of rank for all ranks to go with their black buttons.

Hopefully attached is a photo the the FS cap badge from my collection, the letters which unfortunately I do not have would read BVRC.

Regards

Steve

[June Underwood]

Thanks Steve, for your explanation and for the incredibly clear photo. I feel I know a little bit more now - it's the first time I've delved into uniforms and badges, so it's a whole new topic for me.

June

[MBrockway]

They had their own black maltese cross cap badge ....

And here it is in case you can't make out Steve's avatar ...

The iconography is most definitely KRRC rather than OBLI with presumably the swan of Bucks in the central roundel instead of the strung bugle. Everything else about the badge would suggest a militia btn or VB of the KRRC though! The Leeds Rifles is similar.

Cheers,

Mark

[psturtivant]

Can anyone tell me anything about these uniforms? From knowing the source of the photos I think they could be in the Ox & Bucks LI and if so the man on the left could be Pte F C Hicks 28390 died 16 Aug 1917. The man on the right could be Cpl J C Whitehead 3118 died 11 Jul 1916. I have located both men on CWGC and SDGW.

The cap badge looks like the Ox & Bucks but I'm not sure what the scroll is below it.

At an exhibition recently I saw a similar uniform - this was blue. The cap badge was not visible as the cap was tucked into the epaulette. The scroll on the sleeve looked similar.

June

The Well St photographers is still there - in the hands of a Mr Chapman, and only a short walk from my house: I want to talk to him about WW1 photos, so I might just see if he has any way of identifying this one.

[June Underwood]

Philip, I'll be interested to hear if you find anything out. I never thought of the photographers still being there - they seem to close down so rapidly nowadays! The uniform that I referred to in the previous posts is in the museum at Newport Pagnell and photos can be seen on our website under the name of P J Odell.

June