Bob Chandler Posted 17 September , 2010 Share Posted 17 September , 2010 Could anyone help me identify the badge at the top of this Devonshire (Prince of Wales') Territorial's sleeve? Looks like a 'S' to me.(Mind you I'm 4 years overdue for an eye test.) Any help much appreciated, cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 17 September , 2010 Share Posted 17 September , 2010 So he is 1/5th or 2/5th Devonshires TF? I have tried enlarging the badge and it looks like an "S" or an "8" and I can't find a Divisional badge for either. Might the badge signify something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Chandler Posted 17 September , 2010 Author Share Posted 17 September , 2010 So he is 1/5th or 2/5th Devonshires TF? I have tried enlarging the badge and it looks like an "S" or an "8" and I can't find a Divisional badge for either. Might the badge signify something else? He's 1/5th Battalion. They were 43rd Divn then 62nd I believe. It looks more like an S that an 8 to me, could it be a specialisation badge of some sort??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 17 September , 2010 Share Posted 17 September , 2010 Divisional and other signs by V Wheeler - Holohan gives no known badge for the 43rd Division; the 62nd was the West Riding Division and their badge was a Pelican. I am unable to find any specialist badge that was an "S". It is worn in the wrong place for any sort of qualification or proficiency badge. Somebody else may be able to shed some light - it has me stumped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeesown Posted 17 September , 2010 Share Posted 17 September , 2010 Were they not in the 43 Division then into 75th Division (Key in a square ? ) and then into the 62nd Division? Gary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 17 September , 2010 Share Posted 17 September , 2010 Doesn't look like a Devons cap badge to me. he also looks frighfully young. Is it possible he's in a Graduate Battalion, or a young soldier-type outfit, with a General Service cap badge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 19 September , 2010 Share Posted 19 September , 2010 Hard to tell from the image size, but the shoulder title could be TR - for Training Reserve - and so 8 would be consistent with that. Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 19 September , 2010 Share Posted 19 September , 2010 GT - would a TR battalion be badged with a General Service badge (rather than a regimental badge)? That would tie-in with not wearing a Devonshire Regiment badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 19 September , 2010 Share Posted 19 September , 2010 GT - would a TR battalion be badged with a General Service badge (rather than a regimental badge)? That would tie-in with not wearing a Devonshire Regiment badge. Dunno. Between September 1916 and sometime late in 1917 the TR Bns were not regimentally affiliated. They wore, IIRC, some form of GS button as a cap badge; but don't see that the ordinary GS cap device is too incredible in that context. FWIW, I thought it was a GS cap badge too. My reading of the photo - which could be bigger - is 1. GS cap badge, 2. TR shoulder title 3. arm insignia of the 8th Reserve Brigade. I can't see anything in the image pointing to the Devons at all. Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 19 September , 2010 Share Posted 19 September , 2010 Dunno. Between September 1916 and sometime late in 1917 the TR Bns were not regimentally affiliated. They wore, IIRC, some form of GS button as a cao badge; but don't see that the ordinary GS cap device is too incredible in that context. FWIW, I thought it was a GS cap badge too. My reading of the photo - which could be bigger - is 1. GS cap badge, 2. TR shoulder title 3. arm insignia of the 8th Reserve Brigade. I can't see anything in the image pointing to the Devons at all. Cheers, GT. Certainly looks like a GS cap badge to me, but we've been round this one a few times and IIRC the TR battalions started off with a GS button with a backing of a circle of red felt, then moved to a cloth cap badge with the TR btn's number as a numeral thereon. Not sure the TR battalions ever used the GS badge as as a cap badge as compared to the red felt-backed button. Graham's the expert on the TR so hopefully will spot this and give chapter and verse soon Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 20 September , 2010 Share Posted 20 September , 2010 Certainly looks like a GS cap badge to me, but we've been round this one a few times and IIRC the TR battalions started off with a GS button with a backing of a circle of red felt, then moved to a cloth cap badge with the TR btn's number as a numeral thereon. Not sure the TR battalions ever used the GS badge as as a cap badge as compared to the red felt-backed button. Graham's the expert on the TR so hopefully will spot this and give chapter and verse soon Cheers, Mark Agree with all that Mark: and it would be really useful if the original poster could furnish us with a close up of the shoulder area, as I think the shoulder title - rather than the arm badge - will help enormously. Best wishes, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 20 September , 2010 Share Posted 20 September , 2010 Well, I'd say the shoulder title is almost certainly NOT Devons; it certainly looks at this stage as if it could be "TR": it's short and straight, so a two-letter title seems quite possible. As I said earlier, the wearer looks very young, so my money's on this pic being taken before he was with the Devons, and probably a young soldier, so TR looks very likely, I'd say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 21 September , 2010 Share Posted 21 September , 2010 According to the Mother Site here: LLT: The Training Reserve 8th Brigade TR consisted of: 13th Bn Royal Warwickshire Regt 33rd Bn 13th Bn Hampshire Regt 34th Bn 7th Bn Dorsetshire Regt 35th Bn 9th Bn Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire L I 36th Bn 9th Bn Royal Berkshire Regt 37th Bn What is the source for this chap being in the Devonshires? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 22 September , 2010 Share Posted 22 September , 2010 Now this photo is a beauty and considering the youthfull looks, I'm wondering if we're looking at the period of a change in the TR, when Graguated and Young Soldier Battalions were being formed. Being thousands of miles from home I've not got my notes here, but have used other sources and from those 8th Training Reserve Brigade Battalions listed above by Mark, the following happend;- 33rd Training Res Bn, became 206th(Graduated)Bn,TR and then 51st(Graduated)Bn, Devonshires. 35th Training Res Bn, became 35th(Young Soldier)Bn,TR and then 53rd(Young Soldier)Bn, Devonshires. 37th Training Res Bn, became 210th(Graduated)Bn,TR and then became 52nd(Graduated)Bn, Devonshires. I can't seem to find out what happend to 34th & 35th TR Bn's, but unless disbanded or absorbed by the others they too may have changed identity and role. What I find very interesting is the GS cap badge, as we know the TR wore the GS button and later appear with cloth numeral cap badges, but there appears to be a gap as to what was being worn during this later changes, which makes me think we're possibly looking at either a Graduated Bn or Young Soldier Bn, still within the TR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 22 September , 2010 Share Posted 22 September , 2010 Now this photo is a beauty and considering the youthfull looks, I'm wondering if we're looking at the period of a change in the TR, when Graguated and Young Soldier Battalions were being formed. Being thousands of miles from home I've not got my notes here, but have used other sources and from those 8th Training Reserve Brigade Battalions listed above by Mark, the following happend;- 33rd Training Res Bn, became 206th(Graduated)Bn,TR and then 51st(Graduated)Bn, Devonshires. 35th Training Res Bn, became 35th(Young Soldier)Bn,TR and then 53rd(Young Soldier)Bn, Devonshires. 37th Training Res Bn, became 210th(Graduated)Bn,TR and then became 52nd(Graduated)Bn, Devonshires. I can't seem to find out what happend to 34th & 35th TR Bn's, but unless disbanded or absorbed by the others they too may have changed identity and role. What I find very interesting is the GS cap badge, as we know the TR wore the GS button and later appear with cloth numeral cap badges, but there appears to be a gap as to what was being worn during this later changes, which makes me think we're possibly looking at either a Graduated Bn or Young Soldier Bn, still within the TR. Graham, I've been trying to corroborate this with my orbat notes, but I can't seem to quite connect it all up cleanly. Working forwards in time I have ... 33rd TR Bn -> (in 1917) 206th Graduated Bn -> (in Oct 1917) 51st Bn Devonshire Regt 'new' 33rd TR Bn -> (date unknown) 280th Graduated Bn -> (in Oct 1917) 51st Bn Hampshire Regt 35th TR Bn -> (in 1917) 35th Young Soldier Bn -> (in Oct 1917) 53rd Bn Devonshire Regt 37th TR Bn -> (in 1917) 210th Graduated Bn -> (in Oct 1917) 52nd Bn Devonshire Regt 37th TR Bn -> (in 1917) 37th Young Soldier Bn -> (in Oct 1917) 53rd Bn Hampshire Regt It looks like these soldiers were to a certain extent split between the graduated and the YS btns. Also I have a rogue "new" 33rd TRB, but frustratingly I took down no further detail when I made the notes! Digging around in the Mother Site backs up the duplications above :-( I have nothing on 34th or 36th TRB either. Working the other way backwards from the orbats of the Devonshires and Hampshire Regt gives ... Devonshire Regiment ... 51st Graduated Bn. Formed at North Walsham from the 206th Graduated Bn on 27 Oct 1917 in the 192nd Brigade, 64th Division. 52nd Graduated Bn.Formed at Taverham from the 210th Graduated Bn on 27 Oct 1917 in the 193rd Brigade, 64th Division. 53rd Young Soldier Bn. Formed at Sutton Mandeville from the 35th Young Soldier Bn. Hampshire Regiment ... 51st Graduated Bn. Formed at Canterbury from the 280th Graduated Bn on 27 Oct 1917 in the 201st Brigade, 67th Division. 52nd Graduated Bn. Formed at Canterbury from the 281st Graduated Bn on 27 Oct 1917 in the 201st Brigade, 67th Division. 53rd Young Soldier Bn. Formed at Sutton Veny from the 37th Young Soldier Bn on 27 Oct 1917. Despite the loose ends, I think we can safely say this chap's track follows through one of the three Devons btns back to 206th or 210th Grad btns or 35th YS Btn, and thence to 33rd, 35th or 37th TRB in 8th TR Brigade. You're spot on about it being an interesting picture - could even be a quite important part of the cap badge jigsaw puzzle. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 22 September , 2010 Share Posted 22 September , 2010 either he is tiny or his cane/ stick/ wangee etc etc is very long. As to the arm badge, not a clue. Close up would be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 22 September , 2010 Share Posted 22 September , 2010 either he is tiny or his cane/ stick/ wangee etc etc is very long. As to the arm badge, not a clue. Close up would be helpful. Ha! I thought it was the working end of a cord used to close a curtain just out of shot on the r.h.s.!!! Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 22 September , 2010 Share Posted 22 September , 2010 Hi Grumpy - it's a white figure of '8' on a khaki square typical of the Training Reserve indicating the 'Brigade' within which they serve. Haven't got my notes here, but the numerals were actually coloured to indicate the senior and junior battalions in the Brigade. I seem to remember these colours were white, red, blue and green and think the white numeral was the 'senior' battalion, which if is correct would mean he's possibly 206th Graduated Battalion, Training Reserve c.1917. I base this purely on his age and from other Training Reserve photo's I have in my collection, as the earlier groups from September 1916 are usually a mixed bag of more mature soldiers. As the training role of the TR changes, older men are removed to what we would term 'adult' training units, while the young lads are sent to Graduated and Young Soldier Battalions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 23 September , 2010 Share Posted 23 September , 2010 thanks Graham ............ not my area so I shall wind my neck in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loraine Posted 12 February , 2020 Share Posted 12 February , 2020 On 23/09/2010 at 03:46, Graham Stewart said: Hi Grumpy - it's a white figure of '8' on a khaki square typical of the Training Reserve indicating the 'Brigade' within which they serve. Haven't got my notes here, but the numerals were actually coloured to indicate the senior and junior battalions in the Brigade. I seem to remember these colours were white, red, blue and green and think the white numeral was the 'senior' battalion, which if is correct would mean he's possibly 206th Graduated Battalion, Training Reserve c.1917. I base this purely on his age and from other Training Reserve photo's I have in my collection, as the earlier groups from September 1916 are usually a mixed bag of more mature soldiers. As the training role of the TR changes, older men are removed to what we would term 'adult' training units, while the young lads are sent to Graduated and Young Soldier Battalions. Hello Graham I note you have a collection of photographs of the TR graduates, my grandfather was one such graduate. I wondered if you would like a copy of his photograph for your collection? I don't really have much information about his service, but obviously his life I do. Regards Loraine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 17 February , 2020 Share Posted 17 February , 2020 On 12/02/2020 at 10:56, Loraine said: Hello Graham I note you have a collection of photographs of the TR graduates, my grandfather was one such graduate. I wondered if you would like a copy of his photograph for your collection? I don't really have much information about his service, but obviously his life I do. Regards Loraine Hello Loraine, I’ve not seen Graham post here for a while. It might be better to go to his profile page and send him a private message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loraine Posted 17 February , 2020 Share Posted 17 February , 2020 1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said: Hello Loraine, I’ve not seen Graham post here for a while. It might be better to go to his profile page and send him a private message. Many thanks will do. Loraine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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