Arm Badge Identification

[Willywombat]

Please find attached a photo of a chap with what appear to be two circular badges, one on each upper arm of the tunic. This photo is one of a number of relatives of a friend (the others I have identified from cap badges/shoulder titles), but this one has me somewhat stumped.

I did think they may be Divisional signs or similar, but I'm not so sure.

I hope they come out in the scan, which is 92kb, so pretty close to the maximum I can attach here. I should add that even on the original there is no detail discernible and there are no shoulder titles being worn.

Any ideas?

[Willywombat]

Here are close ups.

Looking again at his left arm badge, do I see ghost of a cross, as in perhaps the insignia of the Red Cross?

If so, can anyone explain what this signifies?

[Piorun]

Sretcher bearer. Possibly non-combatant.

[Roger Thompson]

Hi there,

Possibly RAMC, appears to be too low down for formation patches.

Cheers Roger

[Andrew Upton]

According to badge expert Grumpy on the following thread, the two red cross arm badges were only worn by the RAMC - see post 33, and also 47, 49 and 50 for better examples of actual badges and in use:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=144577&st=25

[Willywombat]

Excellent - thanks all!

(Andy - I don't know why I couldn't find that thread when I tried a search, so thanks for that!)

[Andrew Upton]

(Andy - I don't know why I couldn't find that thread when I tried a search, so thanks for that!)

Andy?

[john gregory]

According to badge expert Grumpy on the following thread, the two red cross arm badges were only worn by the RAMC - see post 33, and also 47, 49 and 50 for better examples of actual badges and in use:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=144577&st=25

The red cross was not only worn by the RAMC, here it is being worn by a Notts & Derby medic

[squirrel]

According to the regs only medical staff were to wear the "Geneva Cross" - this didn't stop others from wearing it, of course.

[Muerrisch]

Fascinating: certainly against Clothing Regs, but there you go!

[Andrew Upton]

The red cross was not only worn by the RAMC, here it is being worn by a Notts & Derby medic

You've posted this one before, but in thinking it over it rather assumes the soldier in the photo is everything he appears to be - I've seen more than a few photo's where humorous hat-swapping and the like has lead to confusion many years later. What is the provenance for the picture in question (ie can it be attributed to a specific person who was a SB/medical personel/similar in the N&D, or is a car boot/etc find with no provenance)? It just strikes me that his hat appears a somewhat poor fit, slightly too large, which might suggest it wasn't his to begin with (or he had a mean QM).

[john gregory]

You've posted this one before, but in thinking it over it rather assumes the soldier in the photo is everything he appears to be - I've seen more than a few photo's where humorous hat-swapping and the like has lead to confusion many years later. What is the provenance for the picture in question (ie can it be attributed to a specific person who was a SB/medical personel/similar in the N&D, or is a car boot/etc find with no provenance)? It just strikes me that his hat appears a somewhat poor fit, slightly too large, which might suggest it wasn't his to begin with (or he had a mean QM).

Yes you are right his hat is a " car boot/etc find with no provenance " the same as this chap's slightly large hat !! must have got his from a car boot as well.

[Andrew Upton]

So, unprovenanced and therefore open to speculation, which would include it being genuine for want of a better world, but also potentially someone messing about at the time and leading to confusion many years later, with no way to prove it one way or the other.

[john gregory]

So, unprovenanced and therefore open to speculation, which would include it being genuine for want of a better world, but also potentially someone messing about at the time and leading to confusion many years later, with no way to prove it one way or the other.

So what you are saying is when this chap had his photo taken he said to his mate " hold on tommy let me borrow your hat to confuse people in later years "

And this Marine photo has no provenance either and he is also messing about, that's what I like about photo's they prove a lot of people wrong.

[Muerrisch]

Thank you for the two photographs showing a soldier and a marine incorrectly dressed.

Anomalies such as this abound: all we are saying is that they are anomalies.

A modern re-enactor who chose to exhibit such an anomaly on his uniform would clearly be an exhibitionist wishing to attract attention.

Elsewhere on the forum are many more anomalies, such as ranking chevrons worn on one arm only.

Its not that it cannot happen, but that it should not.

[a modern one such is the cessation of wearing of good conduct badges ....... although still in QR, soldiers and COs shun them, and the Foot Guards have ceased them on the grounds of economy ....... attaching them marks the Home Service dress [scarlet tunic] so that it cannot be re-issued to another soldier]

[john gregory]

Thank you for the two photographs showing a soldier and a marine incorrectly dressed.

Anomalies such as this abound: all we are saying is that they are anomalies.

A modern re-enactor who chose to exhibit such an anomaly on his uniform would clearly be an exhibitionist wishing to attract attention.

Elsewhere on the forum are many more anomalies, such as ranking chevrons worn on one arm only.

Its not that it cannot happen, but that it should not.

[a modern one such is the cessation of wearing of good conduct badges ....... although still in QR, soldiers and COs shun them, and the Foot Guards have ceased them on the grounds of economy ....... attaching them marks the Home Service dress [scarlet tunic] so that it cannot be re-issued to another soldier]

How can you say they are incorrectly dressed, if they are not a medic why sow the badge on, what would happen if an Officer or RSM spotted the anomaly.

Another Marine with an anomaly, surely they did'nt all want to be an exibitionist ?

[trenchtrotter]

I think the RND may have had there own rules. I have a lovely combat / in the field image of RND m arines wearing the red cross medical orderly badge feeding german POWs. All wear the RND div patch, medics badge, rank badge if appropriate and also RND shoulder titles. One has marine collar dogs. Taken Aug or Sept 1918 I think.

It is a PDF file so I am trying to work out how to shrink so I can post here.

Remember rules are meant to be broken!!!!!!!

Regards

TT

[Muerrisch]

How can you say they are incorrectly dressed, if they are not a medic why sow the badge on, what would happen if an Officer or RSM spotted the anomaly.

Another Marine with an anomaly, surely they did'nt all want to be an exibitionist ?

Relax ..... if you knew much about the Royal Marines [and I forgot this earlier] you would realise that they are RN and therefore Army Clothing Regs are not an appropriate source for me to base any criticism of the senior service. It is true that, broadly, the RM and the army agreed to converge their badge details [this is c. 1890 in the RACD ledger] but this agreement fitted where it touched.

Anyway, the RM cannot be called in evidence regarding army clothing, nor the converse.

Now to your other point, about exhibitionism. You totally misunderstood me, and I recommend you read it properly.

I still regard the N&D man as a big anomaly, absolutely against CR, and the cap-swapping theory is as good as any.

Finally, many thanks for the 2nd RM photo.

[john gregory]

Relax ..... if you knew much about the Royal Marines [and I forgot this earlier] you would realise that they are RN and therefore Army Clothing Regs are not an appropriate source for me to base any criticism of the senior service. It is true that, broadly, the RM and the army agreed to converge their badge details [this is c. 1890 in the RACD ledger] but this agreement fitted where it touched.

Anyway, the RM cannot be called in evidence regarding army clothing, nor the converse.

Now to your other point, about exhibitionism. You totally misunderstood me, and I recommend you read it properly.

I still regard the N&D man as a big anomaly, absolutely against CR, and the cap-swapping theory is as good as any.

Finally, many thanks for the 2nd RM photo.

I am relaxed and I have seen groups of men wearing their mates hats, but why if you have your photo taken in a studio would you wear a different hat ? surely men would be proud to wear their original badge.

I also do not like your, I quote " if you knew much about the Royal Marines " attitude, any respect that I had for your knowledge and valued comments has just been thrown out of the window.

I think the hat swopping in this photo is rubbish and we should all agree to disagree.

Finally, glad you like the 2nd RM photo.

[Andrew Upton]

And this Marine photo has no provenance either and he is also messing about, that's what I like about photo's they prove a lot of people wrong.

In this case, how ? Without a provenance to prove the people in the photo's were indeed medical personel in the relevant regiments it still cannot be proved one way or the other. An equally valid explanation could be that the hat swapping theory (which I know was quite widespread at the time, it helps when the two swapping hats are in the same group shot and one is say clearly a kilted soldier in a bush hat, and the other is Aussie in a glengarry) was indeed extremely widespread. Or it was borrowed or lent by the photographer due to the soldier in question not having one. You also rather seem to be ignoring that I have been saying the possibility is they are perfectly genuine all along, but to state with certainty that they are so without provenance is pure speculation. Showing more examples of the same only shows how extensive the alternative could have been.

[john gregory]

In this case, how ? Without a provenance to prove the people in the photo's were indeed medical personel in the relevant regiments it still cannot be proved one way or the other. An equally valid explanation could be that the hat swapping theory (which I know was quite widespread at the time, it helps when the two swapping hats are in the same group shot and one is say clearly a kilted soldier in a bush hat, and the other is Aussie in a glengarry) was indeed extremely widespread. Or it was borrowed or lent by the photographer due to the soldier in question not having one. You also rather seem to be ignoring that I have been saying the possibility is they are perfectly genuine all along, but to state with certainty that they are so without provenance is pure speculation. Showing more examples of the same only shows how extensive the alternative could have been.

Andy, I am not ignoring the fact that you say it is a possibilty that they are genuine, but you seem to ignoring the fact what I am saying.

Why if you are a RAMC medic having your photo taken in a studio wear a N/Derby hat ?. Borrowing one from the photographer ? I do'nt think so ( clutching at straws there ). Would you not think even if they did not have a hat they rather have their photo taken without one than with another Regiments.

Do you honestly think that when the men collected their uniforms from the stores the QM had no hats, come on, if you look at photo's of the men with their bundles of kit the hat was on the top.

Has any other member any comment to make on this interesting debate ? there has been 251 viewings but only me, mr grumps, Andy and Tim commenting.

Finaly, how is the Machine Gun Section going Andy, do you need any more recruits ? I still have all my kit and ready to re-enlist, as long as I can badge up to the N/Derby and put on a marksman, bomber, signaller, L.G., medic and Machine Gun Corps badges on, oh and some overseas chevrons and medal ribons. Is that is ok ?

[Muerrisch]

I am relaxed and I have seen groups of men wearing their mates hats, but why if you have your photo taken in a studio would you wear a different hat ? surely men would be proud to wear their original badge.

I also do not like your, I quote " if you knew much about the Royal Marines " attitude, any respect that I had for your knowledge and valued comments has just been thrown out of the window.

I think the hat swopping in this photo is rubbish and we should all agree to disagree.

Finally, glad you like the 2nd RM photo.

Just back from 3 days away, and have re-read the sentence to which you take objection.

No offence was intended: I assumed that someone who could produce 2 RM men with RAMC-style badges at the drop of a hat would be a bit of an RM expert.

So, firstly, apologies.

Secondly, I don't mind if you cease to respect me personally, but I do think that respect for knowledge as such should be absolute among forum members.

Finally, I trust that your last paragraph to Andrew was tongue in cheek and needs no reply from me or anyone else.

[Andrew Hesketh]

I think one or two misunderstandings are developing here. Let's try to avoid disagreements becoming personalised please.

[john gregory]

Just back from 3 days away, and have re-read the sentence to which you take objection.

No offence was intended: I assumed that someone who could produce 2 RM men with RAMC-style badges at the drop of a hat would be a bit of an RM expert.

So, firstly, apologies.

Secondly, I don't mind if you cease to respect me personally, but I do think that respect for knowledge as such should be absolute among forum members.

Finally, I trust that your last paragraph to Andrew was tongue in cheek and needs no reply from me or anyone else.

I do respect your views and knowledge David.

It was tongue in cheek to Andy, although I would'nt mind being a machine gunner

Finally, can we be friends now

[Muerrisch]

I do respect your views and knowledge David.

It was tongue in cheek to Andy, although I would'nt mind being a machine gunner

Finally, can we be friends now

Yes