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Remembered Today:

Medals or NO medals


Caledonian

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My grandfather served in the Seaforth Highlanders in various parts of northern India during his service between 1919 and 1931 (twelve years service). While this would be considered peacetime service by many were medals for service awarded, particularly for overseas campaigns? I have tried to obtain this information from the Medals Office but I regret their response time is exceeding long........have they lost my letter?

I have obtained my grandfather's military service records and there is no indication on any of the papers that service medals were awarded or not, hence my question. Can anyone enlighten me please?

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Serving in India itself would not be sufficient for him to receive service medals. He would have had to participate in one of the campaigns for which medals (or clasps to specific medals) were awarded.

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auchonvillerssomme

India General service medal 1908. There were clasps awarded during the period your GF served in India but if they aren't mentioned in his service records it's unlikely he received the medal and clasp(s).

Someone will know if there are rolls available.

Mick

http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britishguide/india_general_service_1908_award.htm

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If he received the IGS 1908 with Clasp for "Afghanistan North West Frontier 1919" there would most likely be a Medal index Card For that medal giving Roll reference, any further Clasp awards may well be anotated on the MiC too {I have such a medal to RASC Pte [Act.MSSM] G Lilley for Afghan & NWF,1919,NWF 1920~1921 & 1922~1924,Mashud 1919~20.} all 4 Clasps are anotated on the Index Card.

HB

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My ancient copy of Major LL Gordon's British Battles and Medals (1960s vintage) shows for the Indian General Service Medal 1908-35

  • Afghanistan NWF 1919: Some Seaforth Highlanders though battalion not present
  • Malabar 1921-22: No Seaforths
  • Wazirstan 1921-24: No Seaforths
  • Wazirstan 1925: RAF only
  • North West Frontier 1930-31: 2nd Bn Seaforth Highlanders
  • Burma 1930-32: No Seaforths

I can't find the Seaforth Highlanders listed against any of the possible bars for the General Service Medal (Army and Royal Air Force) for the period

Ian

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:poppy: Abscence of a Regiment from a theatre would not automatically exclude them as many "odd" men may have been "on attachment",the only surefire way if no MiC shows entitlement is to scour the Medal rolls.

NB the AMO is notoriously long winded as it has a very small staff & will be dealing with current & recent claims for awards for more modern campaigns.

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There must be a Seaforths book that covers the Inter War era and details where they went and what they did, even if just garrison duty.?

However, it is interesting to note that Cpl A Greenwood, reported in 1932 to be the most bemedalled soldier was a Seaforth and had no IGS 1908-35. Another source shows that the Seaforths went back out to India after service in Ireland in the 'late 1920s', any better dates? The first clasp they could qualify for would probably have been the 1930-31 NWF in that case?

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There must be a Seaforths book that covers the Inter War era and details where they went and what they did, even if just garrison duty.?

However, it is interesting to note that Cpl A Greenwood, reported in 1932 to be the most bemedalled soldier was a Seaforth and had no IGS 1908-35. Another source shows that the Seaforths went back out to India after service in Ireland in the 'late 1920s', any better dates? The first clasp they could qualify for would probably have been the 1930-31 NWF in that case?

Post #5

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There must be a Seaforths book that covers the Inter War era and details where they went and what they did, even if just garrison duty.?

Angus Fairrie's Queen's Own Highlanders - Seaforth & Camerons (1998) gives ...

1st Btn Seaforth Highlanders

1919-1921 - Scotland

1921-1926 - Ireland

1926-1933 - Aldershot, then Dover

1933 - Palestine

1934-1936 - Egypt

1936 - Palestine

1937-1938 - Hong Kong

1938-1940 - Shanghai

2nd Btn Seaforth Highlanders

1919-1932 India

in detail ...

Nov 1919 - arrived Meerut

Nov 1922 - to Umbala (train), to NW Frontier (two months 500 mile march), over 1 year at NWF

1924 - to Nowshera

1927 - to Lahore (250 mile march)

1929 - to Jhansi

1930 - to Miri Khel, W of Peshawar, NWF for Active Service Operations against Afridi tribesman

[hence IGS medal NWF 1930-31 clasp as per Ian's post above]

Nov 1932 - to Haifa, Palestine (joined by 1/Seaforths in Dec 1933 who were at Jerusalem 100 miles distant)

1934-1937 - Dover Castle

1937-1939 - Glasgow (Maryhill Barracks)

As has been already said though, individual men would have been attached temporarily to units other than their own battalion and would have differing medal entitlements accordingly.

However, it is interesting to note that Cpl A Greenwood, reported in 1932 to be the most bemedalled soldier was a Seaforth and had no IGS 1908-35. Another source shows that the Seaforths went back out to India after service in Ireland in the 'late 1920s', any better dates? The first clasp they could qualify for would probably have been the 1930-31 NWF in that case?

Presumably Cpl Greenwood was either in 1/Seaforths or, if in 2/Seaforths, did not follow the btn to the NWF.

HTH

Cheers,

Mark

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Caledonian,

As someone has already indicated, I would here re-affirm that 2nd Battalion Seaforth Highlanders as a 'battalion' earned the India General Service Medal 1908 with clasp 'North West Frontier 1930-31'.

If your Grandfather was serving with 2/Seaforth in India between March 1930 - March 1931, then providing he also met the qualifying theatre criteria, it is most likely that he did qualify for, and was entitled to receive an India General Service Medal 1908 with clasp 'North West Frontier 1930-31'.

If your Grandfather was entitled to the medal and clasp it will be recorded on the respective IGS 1908 medal roll - which is now accessible in the public domain at The National Archives, and would be well worth you engaging a researcher to check on your behalf.

Where and on what date exactly did your Grandfather leave the Army, and what are the 'Service Records' you refer to? Both of these details are important to estbalish entitlement to the medal and clasp. If your Grandfather left the Army as you indicate in 1931, and the service documents you refer is his 'Certificate of Service' (Red Book) dated at time of his discharge then that document would NOT record any entitlement to a medal and clasp for NWF 1930-31. I say this as the Authority for Award for the clasp 'North West Frontier 1930-31' was only published by Army Order 94 of 1933 (with later ammendments) - and hence if your Grandfather had left the service before that date then there would be no record of the medal or clasp showing in it.

I have a long run of Regimental Journals of the period circa 1922-1932, so if you wish to let me know your Grandfathers Army Number, forenammes and surname I will try and see if I can find a mention of him therein.

As information.

Mark

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I have read all your responses with great interest. It would appear that My grandfather arrived in Meerut in early 1921 and served 5 years 21 days with 2nd Battalion until 19.1.1926 when he returned home to continue his service. I appreciate that he may not have 'earned a medal for bravery' but many serving personnel receive medals for just being in a particular theatre at a particular time. I do not have the information of who gets and why, hence my reason for contacting the AMO. I am disappointed that they still have not been in contact if simply to state that they are busy but will get around to my enquiry. They may well not have the staff and it is easy to be critical about that. I have asked the question and it of course deserves a formal answer from them. It may well echo the responses given above and that's fine too. So my grandfather was not involved in the NWF during 1930-31 campaign. I would be delighted if you could check to see if his name is mentioned in the Regimental Journals. his details are below:

Clement Ross b. 11.2.1902 2nd Battallion Seaforth Highlanders Reg No. 2809605

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auchonvillerssomme

I am disappointed that they still have not been in contact if simply to state that they are busy but will get around to my enquiry. They may well not have the staff and it is easy to be critical about that. I have asked the question and it of course deserves a formal answer from them.

I agree with you on that one, they are a public service and they should at least respond - It surprises me when poor service from the medal office is defended, as if the office consists of 2 grey haired old ladies working voluntarily amongst a pile of dusty documents in a few thousand miles of wooden filing cabinets. They are civil servants and cannot defend a poor service as being due to cost, it is part of the 'service' they provide.

Mick

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... it would appear that My grandfather arrived in Meerut in early 1921 and served 5 years 21 days with 2nd Battalion until 19.1.1926 when he returned home to continue his service ... I do not have the information of who gets and why ... <snip> ... So my grandfather was not involved in the NWF during 1930-31 campaign.

Clement Ross b. 11.2.1902 2nd Battallion Seaforth Highlanders Reg No. 2809605

Caledonian,

You have his service record and this topic has posts explaining the criteria under which the IGS 1930-31 NWF clasp was awarded. If he was present with the 2nd Seaforths for all of his time in India, then he would not have met these campaign medal criteria.

There remains the possibilty he might have been present elsewhere in India temporarily attached to a different unit and earned entitlement through them.

You can investigate this via the medal roll. You have his service number and battalion - why not check the medal rolls at Kew yourself? You are likely to get a quicker response than via the AMO.

Good luck!

Mark

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I agree with you on that one, they are a public service and they should at least respond - It surprises me when poor service from the medal office is defended, as if the office consists of 2 grey haired old ladies working voluntarily amongst a pile of dusty documents in a few thousand miles of wooden filing cabinets. They are civil servants and cannot defend a poor service as being due to cost, it is part of the 'service' they provide.

Mick

Personally I'd rather see my taxes go to some extra aviation fuel so the lads in Helmand could get moved by helicopter instead of road, than have an extra civil servant in the Army Medal Office ...

... reaches for tin hat and dives for cover :innocent:

Cheers,

Mark

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auchonvillerssomme

Interesting piece of emotional blackmail there, I so obviously didn't realise that its my and others communications with the medal office that has caused the deaths of so many servicemen and women in 'Helmand'.

Dear God whats going to happen when I write to the Army Pensions office to enquire about my preserved pension - are they going to have Tornados falling from the sky and the troops going barefoot or maybe the country won't be able to afford another flag for another coffin.

Mick

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  • 10 years later...
John Clark Grandson

Hi all, This was such an interesting thread to follow.

Is there anyone who can shine some light on a topic that has me stumped? I am trying to find details of a John H Clark, 2nd Battalion Seaforth highlanders 2967840. In 1926 he was stationed at either Meerut or Khanspur, India, whilst the main part of the battalion was based at Nowsheera. From reading this thread I can see it not unusual for men to be stationed away from the main body of the Battalion. He was stationed with my great grandfather George Edwards, Sgt 87th Battery RFA, presumably one or other units in support of the other. I have located details of the North West Frontier (1930-31) awarded to John and alongside the entry is written "RV/B19 d/14-4144  IVB1187 d/17/7/44" does anyone have ANY idea what this means?? Other than that I have not been able to locate any other information - at all!

If there is ANY information whatever about John that could point me in any direction I would love to hear it :)

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tullybrone

 

 

1 hour ago, John Clark Grandson said:

Hi all, This was such an interesting thread to follow.

Is there anyone who can shine some light on a topic that has me stumped? I am trying to find details of a John H Clark, 2nd Battalion Seaforth highlanders 2967840. In 1926 he was stationed at either Meerut or Khanspur, India, whilst the main part of the battalion was based at Nowsheera. From reading this thread I can see it not unusual for men to be stationed away from the main body of the Battalion. He was stationed with my great grandfather George Edwards, Sgt 87th Battery RFA, presumably one or other units in support of the other. I have located details of the North West Frontier (1930-31) awarded to John and alongside the entry is written "RV/B19 d/14-4144  IVB1187 d/17/7/44" does anyone have ANY idea what this means?? Other than that I have not been able to locate any other information - at all!

If there is ANY information whatever about John that could point me in any direction I would love to hear it :)


 

Hi,

 

I’m no expert but as the forum medal experts may struggle to find your post as it is tagged on to this topic I’ll respond briefly.

 

The codes you quote are often found on Medal Rolls - they are for internal use by the Medal Office in their records. The V = Voucher and in the second string of code IVB = Issue Voucher (B) followed by the actual date of issue of the medal in 1944. Late issue of the medal to a man who had left the army is not unusual.
 

You don’t say whether you have a copy of the man’s service record from MOD personnel office in Glasgow? if not you ought to apply via this link - 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records

 

You will need to do some genealogical research to confirm his date of death and unless he was born over 116 years ago you will need to supply a death certificate to MOD. 

 

Steve

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John Clark Grandson

Hi Steve, thanks so much for taking the time to provide that information.

I have followed the link you provided, and yes, you are correct, that will be my next action. 👍 thanks.

Martin

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And the 'd/14-4144' part is actually d/ 14/4/44. A slightly earlier date than the medal's issue.

 

RV could be receipt or received voucher but that doesn't make much sense with a date preceeding the Issue Voucher date. CRV the two entries above is 'certified receipt voucher'.

 

I'm guessing here but maybe replacement voucher? The codes have been written into a blank space, there were 10 blank spaces. I'd think the other blanks received their medals soon after the roll was compiled by post and nothing to suggest Clark's weren't as well.

 

Possible he lost his and requested a replacement?

 

The more I look at his code it seems more in keeping with the two above his, both the Chisholms.

 

Perhaps by 1944 the clerks had adopted a varient coding system.

 

TEW

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John Clark Grandson

Thanks Tew, that is most useful. Getting closer!

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