Turkish Rifles at Gallipoli

[shippingsteel]

I have read recently that these were captured Turkish Mauser rifles from the Palestine, Mesopotamia and Gallipoli theatres that were redeployed as an aid measure to the Belgian forces. I know the Aussies captured some very large caches of weapons in the desert operations of the Light Horse ie. Beersheba et al. When you think about it, it does seem like a no-brainer, suddenly here are all these surplus rifles and the Belgians happen to use the same calibre ammunition. The Belgians are also allies with a need for weapons .... so job done.

Cheers, S>S

[Gunner Bailey]

Here's a photo of the unmodified 1893/4 receiver.

John

[4thGordons]

Here's a photo of the unmodified 1893/4 receiver.

John

John,

Is the magazine cut-off still present on your rifle? I would have expected it to be visible on this picture.

Chris

[Gunner Bailey]

John,

Is the magazine cut-off still present on your rifle? I would have expected it to be visible on this picture.

Chris

Hi Chris. No Cut Off I'm afraid. I expect it was taken off if the rifle was used for hunting. The hole you see and a slot below it (on the side) is the only eveidence one was fitted at some stage.

John

[TonyE]

Thanks Tonye

But i'm talking about 1917 and 1918. I do not think that Turkey would be selling arms at that time.

Carl

Sorry, my mistake. I understood your phrase "late war" to mean WW2!

Regards

TonyE

[dman]

Turks in 1887 signed a contract with Mauser to provide (IIRC) 500,000 rifles and 50,000 carbine for cavalry

It was an upgraded model Mauser 1884 tube fed repeater in new black powder caliber of 9.5 mm. Turks inserted a

clause stating that if Masuer made any upgrades the remainder of the contract would be filled with

these models. In 1889 after about 200,000 rifles were made the 1889 Belgians adopted new Mauser rifle, a box

machine fed smokeless powder rifle in 7.65mm. Turks enforced the contract and Mauser began to produce it as 1890 -

slightly modified version of Belgian. In 1893 Mauser released new version with staggered box magazine for Spain

which Turks adopted as the Turkish model 1893.

Mauser was stuck with number of parts for now obsolete 9.5mm - during WW1 used them to build some 25,000 rifles

for Wurtemburg Landwehr

[Guest philiptindall]

I know that thisis an old post, but I stumbled upon it recently after I was researching whatrifles the Turks were using at Gallipoli.

I becameintrigued when visiting Gallipoli for the first time only last week, Ihappened to take this photo of a statue of a Turkish soldier.

I assumed thatthey would have all been issued with Turkish Mausers.

What puzzled mewas the configuration of this rifle. It seems to be half Enfield and halfMauser. If in fact it is an "Enfauser", why did they use this model when theMauser would have been far in the majority weapon used?

[TonyE]

It certainly looks like a Turkish Enfield/Mauser reworked hybrid, so perhaps the answer is as simple as that when the statue was made in the 1920/30s(?) the soldier used as a model was carrying one.

Whether it was taken from life or a photograph we will probably never know, but by the time the statue was cast it would have been a bit too late!

Regards

TonyE

[michaeldr]

I believe that this statue was made by the sculptor Tankut Öktem (b. 1940 in Konya - d. 5 December 2007 in İstanbul) and probably dates from around the time of the building of the 57th Regimental Memorial and Cemetery in 1992. With the passage of such a long time since 1915 then there was perhaps scope for some artistic license in the design. The statue is named Türk Askerine Saygı Anıtı (Respect to the Turkish Soldier)

Interestingly a Turkish guide book which I have (in English) mentions the nearby statue of the last known Turkish Gallipoli veteran Hüseyin Kaçmaz (died 1994), but not this statue of 'Respect'

regards

Michael

[michaeldr]

There is another statue with a similar name

Mehmetçiğe Derin Saygi Aniti (The Monument of Deepest Respect for Mehmetçik)

see http://www.resimler.tv/resim2250.htm

which, contrary to the inscription beneath it, shows the Turkish soldier not unarmed, but carrying a British rifle and bayonet

I'm not sure who the sculpter was in this case

[TonyE]

Thanks for that, Michael, I was well out on my date!

Regards

TonyE

[Guest philiptindall]

Thanks Tony and Michael.

I am attaching a copy from an Australian website (http://mc2.vicnet.ne...li_bk_proof.pdf) giving an explanation for "The Monument of Deepest Respect for Mehmetçik". Do we assume that he retrieved Lieutenant Casey"s rifle and bayonet as well, or is it artistic licence again.

The Monument of Deep Respect toMehmetcik, overlooking ANZAC Cove and the Gallipoli battlefields, depicts anunknown Turkish soldier carrying wounded 24-year- old Lieutenant Richard Casey(later to become Lord Casey and Governor-General of Australia, 1967-71) back tothe allied trenches in a great act of compassion.

[michaeldr]

Philip,

I was trying to concentrate on the non-Turkish rifles shown in statues, and avoid the distraction of controversy,

however since you ask: Do we assume that he retrieved Lieutenant Casey"s rifle and bayonet as well, or is it artistic licence again.

This question has been raised before on this forum and perhaps a search may throw up more information for you.

What I can say now is that it is a nice story, but there seems to be very considerable doubt as to its authenticity. This is what Gürsel Göncü and Şahin Aldoğan have to say in their Gallipoli Battlefield Guide (MB Books, 2006, Istanbul, ISBN 975-9191-07-5)

"The story that this statue is supposed to represent, (is) not confirmed by any serious source whatsoever and also practically impossible,...”

regards

Michael

[gew98]

Those half Enfield/Mauser jobs really are odd looking. Have'nt seen one in some years now as only a few handfulls seemed to turn up in imports then.

Turk mausers in their issue 7,65 caliber & configurations are quite scarce in US collections. The turks did a fairly thorough job of reworking their rifles on hand post war to 7,92. And yes the turks were supplied with gobs of gew88's modified to use the standard Mauser 5 shot charger and when these ran out they received gobs of gew88's exclusively from mauser Oberndorf production. Post WW1 they procured large amounts of surplus german gew88 & 98 rifles from about anyone wanting to sell same. In general turk used mausers of any stripe have usually been rode hard and put up wet.

And yes the belgians did receive a quantity of turk rifles as it was a common caliber and rifle type to them.

Many many turk mausers were returned to the turks during Gallipoli sans bolts due to a deal worked out with the allies then. Hence so many turk rifles with bolts in considerably better condition than the parent rifles and as well the unusual amount of Armorer's bolts that turned up in imports in the day.

On a sidenote the 7,65 caliber is no slouch as it easily trumps the 7,62 nato , and in my experiance is a more accurate chambering of a service cartridge.

[shippingsteel]

Many many turk mausers were returned to the turks during Gallipoli sans bolts due to a deal worked out with the allies then.

Hence so many turk rifles with bolts in considerably better condition than the parent rifles and as well the unusual amount of Armorer's bolts that turned up in imports in the day.

My understanding is that this came about during the peace negotiations at the end of the war, not at Gallipoli. The Turks were not completely 'beaten down' at the wars end.

They were a fiercely proud people and some very tense negotiations took place between themselves and the British about how the 'agreed surrender' should work itself out.

Apparently it was a very touchy subject with the Turks at one point vowing to again take up arms and fight on, however sanity prevailed and a compromise agreement made.

As part of this standoff the Turkish troops got to keep their rifles with the British insisting that they got to keep the bolts. I think that's how it panned out - Ataturk was tough.!!

Cheers, S>S

[michaeldr]

The occupation and the treaty negotiations were a long drawn out process during which the Turkish state had a radical change of government. I'm not clear about the time frame of your post S>S, but this may fit

The OH for 1918-1923, The Occupation of Constantinople has it that the Turks agreed to a residual force of 50,000 and that they would hand over all equipment beyond that need for this.

“On the 21st November 1919 the Turkish Government reported to General Milne that the oldest clases (1866-83) had been demobilized, and 11 more would have gone by the 1st December, leaving 4, just enough for the purposes of maintaining order.”

Even Mustapha Kemal is reported to have 'sent in a large consignment of machine guns'

The arms were collected at named points for each division and stored under British guard, except in one case where the French collected arms and stored them in a fort on the Dardanelles.

Ammunition was also collected, and some was dumped at sea

The single French store was raided by Nationalists on 21 January 1920, when they carried off 30 machine guns, 8,500 rifles and 500,000 rounds of SAA. (The French guard had consisted of only 7 Senegalese)

It was at this point that Lt-Gen Maitland Wilson sent down 100 Punjabis 'to remove all machine gun plates and the rifle bolts of the arms still in the forts, and to dump the ammunition into the sea; and he gave orders that French troops in the Dardanelles were not to be used for guarding depots of arms.'

I hope that this is of help

Michael

[michaeldr]

This is from the IWM collection; their ref. Q 14268

c.1919, inside the Arsenal, Constantinople - note the stacks of rifles

[gew98]

My understanding is that this came about during the peace negotiations at the end of the war, not at Gallipoli. The Turks were not completely 'beaten down' at the wars end.!!

Cheers, S>S

In two books I have read and have Regarding Gallipoli ,on more than a couple ocassions when truces were called to remove the dead and wounded from attacks between the lines it was agreed they would turn over to each other rifles recovered from the field sans the bolts. Johnny Turk was a respected adversary in that campaign for no small reason(s).

[shippingsteel]

I don't doubt that it may have happened at Gallipoli, as it seems as though it was a common arrangement which occurred in various different locations and times.

My comment was mainly in regard to the sheer numbers of 'boltless' Turk Mausers that came about, that it wasn't just a case of a truce arrangement at Gallipoli.

The Australians also fought the Turks right through from Egypt to Palestine and further north and I have heard of this happening, and especially after the armistice.

As Michael's post indicates there were also problems securing surrendered weapons - with Arab nationalists taking their chance to steal rifles at every opportunity.

It appears the practice of removing bolts was widespread, as I've read anecdotes of runaway camels galloping off into the desert spilling loads of bolts as they went.!

Cheers, S>S