Lt E D Moore - 1/1st Shropshire Yeo

[rmcguirk]

The above officer commanded a Light Car Patrol in the Western Desert from summer 1916 until autumn 1918. He stayed in the Army until the 1920s, and so his personal military records are probably not at the National Archives - at least I haven't been able to find them. I've taken the usual next step of referring my request to the Army Personnel Centre in Glasgow, but their listings, which should be complete for officers serving from 1922 onwards, indicate no E D Moore born between the years 1872 and 1903, and I think it unlikely that the man I'm looking for was born in 1872 or earlier. He would have been in his mid-40s when driving around the desert for two years often in extreme conditions. Possible, of course, but it would be costly to get the records for 1872, for example, and frustrating to find that's not the man I'm looking for.

At the NA I have found 3 cards for the right Lt E D Moore under WO 372/24: for the TFE Medal and 2 copies of a Mention in Despatches (Supplement LG, 6 July 1917, p 6769). There is no info on the back of the cards on the Ancestry versions. Moore also received an MC in 1917.

I've drawn a blank at the Shropshire Regimental Museum.

I concede that it now looks unlikely that I'll find Moore's military records, but I'm hoping at least to find out what his initials E and D stand for.

I'd be grateful for any ideas? (Or even advice just to give up gracefully....).

Russell

[liliasodell]

Hi.

There are actually very few male Moores with the initials E D on the relevant censuses. The following is the only one I can see with the initials E D showing in 1901 - and unfortunately just uses the initials, no names. Details are - E D Moore, age 19, born Buxton, Derbyshire abt 1882, living in Bournemouth, Hampshire with his mother - Amy Moore, widow, age 49, born abt 1852 in Holloway, London.

The 1891 census has an Amy Moore, born Holloway, London, age 39 (born abt 1852), living in Christchurch, Hampshire. She is living with her husband James (born abt 1839), and sons Augustus J. (age 6, born abt 1885), and Eric D (age 7, born abt 1884 in Buxton, Derbyshire). Looks to be the same family, despite the slight age difference.

I don't know if this is the right one - but might be worth further investigation?

LJO

[rmcguirk]

LJO

Thank you very much for this. It looks like a strong possibility that this is the right man, though it's surprising the censuses have only one E D Moore, while there are at least three British soldiers of that name serving in WWI who are not the right man. Or perhaps not - it could simply be the full names of the three were given on the censuses. On the plus side: Buxton, Derbyshire is near Shropshire and the year of birth is about what I would expect for the man I'm looking for. Interesting that Eric D Moore's exact birth year was apparently unknown to his mother??!

Thanks again, and I'll keep trying to pin this man down.

Russell

[Carmania]

Russell

Is he the Lieutenat Moore who was accompanied on his patrols by Dr John Ball of the Survey of Egypt?

Aled

[rmcguirk]

Russell

Is he the Lieutenat Moore who was accompanied on his patrols by Dr John Ball of the Survey of Egypt?

Aled

Hi Aled,

Yes, that's the one. His trip with Dr Ball to the far SW, near the Gilf Kebir, was an amazing achievement.

Trying to find details about Moore has not been easy!

Russell

[Carmania]

Russell

I've come across a number of references to him in The Geographical Journal but so far only as Lieutenant Moore. I'll keep looking.

Aled

[rmcguirk]

Aled,

I have John Ball's paper "Problems of the Libyan Desert", published in that journal in 1927, and most subsequent references to Moore are based on that article and on the Survey of Egypt maps produced after 1918, on which the route taken by Moore and Ball is usually indicated. Ralph Bagnold more or less followed their route a decade later.

Regards,

Russell

[liliasodell]

No probs! I saw an E D in the Shropshire Light Infantry medal rolls. There are a few on the censuses that just have one initial 'E', or one forename beginning with 'E'. Always difficult to pin down the one you want, when info is limited. Start with the most likely, then work your way through - time consuming, but it can be the only way, and you certainly get a nice buzz if you stumble across the right one! Incidentally, if you're looking for it, the 1891 census on Ancestry shows Eric D as 'Erie D' - transcription error - obvious if you look at the original.

Let me know if I can do anything else to help.

LJO

LJO

Thank you very much for this. It looks like a strong possibility that this is the right man, though it's surprising the censuses have only one E D Moore, while there are at least three British soldiers of that name serving in WWI who are not the right man. Or perhaps not - it could simply be the full names of the three were given on the censuses. On the plus side: Buxton, Derbyshire is near Shropshire and the year of birth is about what I would expect for the man I'm looking for. Interesting that Eric D Moore's exact birth year was apparently unknown to his mother??!

Thanks again, and I'll keep trying to pin this man down.

Russell

[liliasodell]

This might be worth a look -

esharp Issue 4, Journeys of Discovery - Desert, Cars, Maps and Names by Jim Harold. Web page is - www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_41156_en.pdf

It's about Claud H Williams, Captain, Light Car Patrol, and mentions 2 works of his, plus a bit about Ball's (plus one mention of 'Moore' in relation to Ball) work - and has a good-looking bibliography, which might offer new places to look.

LJO.

[rmcguirk]

No probs! I saw an E D in the Shropshire Light Infantry medal rolls. There are a few on the censuses that just have one initial 'E', or one forename beginning with 'E'. Always difficult to pin down the one you want, when info is limited. Start with the most likely, then work your way through - time consuming, but it can be the only way, and you certainly get a nice buzz if you stumble across the right one! Incidentally, if you're looking for it, the 1891 census on Ancestry shows Eric D as 'Erie D' - transcription error - obvious if you look at the original.

Let me know if I can do anything else to help.

LJO

LJO,

Thanks for your last two messages.

Re the first: the E D Moore you saw in the Shropshire L I medal rolls is the right man. I've got 5 references for these medal rolls under WO 329 at Kew. I think it may be worth my while going back to them to see if his soldier numbers are given - and I understand he probably had two, before 1917 and after.

Re the second: yes, I've got Jim Harold's paper as well as a wealth of material on C H Williams.

I much appreciate your interest -- and you've given me some good clues.

Regards,

Russell

[VinceB]

Russell

I hope this isn't stating what you have already done but have you accessed the quarterly Army List for this period. Every officer is listed with their formation and usually there is a graduation list. In the Graduation List is usually the full details of the person.

Vince

[rmcguirk]

Vince,

Thank you for the tip. I didn't check all the Army Lists for the period - just July for each year 1914 through 1921. I'll go back and be more thorough.

Thanks again,

Russell

[Carmania]

Russell

You might well have seen it but Google Books has a snippet view of 'The Shropshire Yeomanry MDCCXCV - MCMXLV' by E W Gladstone. I was able to find the following, "E. D. Moore, T.S. Luce and O.V. Williams were promoted from the ranks of the regiment." There could be more but I was unable to tease it out.

I've not been able to pin down Williams but Luce was probably Thomas Sopwith Luce whose birth was registered in Malmesbury, Wiltshire in the September Qtr of 1877. In 1901 he was 23 and lodging in Lewisham whilst working as a clerk in the London Stock Exchange but by 1911 he was a farmer of Wetmore Farm, Wetmore, Shropshire aged 33 and single. He was promoted from 2nd Lieutenant to Lieutenant on the 1st July 1917 when he would have been about 40. I've not been able to trace a MIC for him.

In view of Luce's age it's possible that Moore might be the Edwin Davies Moore whose birth was registered in Atcham, Shropshire in the June Qtr of 1872. This would have made him about 44 when Dr John Ball was with him in 1916. Too old? I haven't been able to determine more details about him as he has proved elusive in the Census returns.

Hopefully the Quarterly Army Lists will reveal more.

Aled

[rmcguirk]

Aled,

That's brilliant! I haven't able to access more than a few useless paragraph bits from the Google Books version of The Shropshire Yeomanry, but I expect to be at the NA tomorrow and I'm hoping their library will have it. I'll also track E D Moore's record back as far as it will go in the Army Lists. We know that he was a sergeant at the start of the war. It the record goes back far enough, that would be evidence that he might have been 44 in 1916.

You say that Edwin Davies Moore of Atcham, Shropshire, was born in the June Qtr of 1872. The folks at Army Personnel, Glasgow, tell me the birthday of E D Moore (b. 1872) - the one whose military record I didn't want to spend money on till I had more evidence that he was the right man - was born on 14 June. So that's looking increasingly like a match, at least been the Edwin Moore in the Census and E D Moore in the Glasgow listing. Now to see if the Army Lists indicate E D Moore of the Shropshire Yeo might have been in his 40s...

If it does, my next problem is ordering the military record (EDM b. 1872) from Glasgow... they're saying it will be January before they can get it to me!!!

Many thanks for your good work. I'll report back on tomorrow's findings.

Regards,

Russell

[rmcguirk]

The man's name is Edward Davies Moore: the full name is on his MC card, along with "Shropshire Yeo, attd Light Car Patrols, MG Corps".

In the 1881 Census I found the following:

Edward Moore, Age 9, born [abt 1872,] Shrewsbury, Shropshire.

Father: Wm Moore

Mother: Emma Moore

1872 is not actually specified, only that Edward Moore was 9 at the time of the 1881 Census. And there is no mention in the Census of his middle name, Davies. It does, however, mention that registration occurred in Atcham. The Help Desk at Kew is suggesting that Aled's Edwin Davies Moore, born 1872 at Atcham is the same person with the first name simply wrong; and that such errors are far more likely on Census forms than on MC cards.

That's good enough for me, and I'm happy now to order Moore's military record from Glasgow.

Thanks to all who helped me nail this one.

Russell

[Carmania]

Russell

Glad you got your man.

Regards

Aled