Lithuania 1919 - 1920

[charlesmessenger]

Yes, it should read Crozier rather than Curzon.

My apologies!

Charles M

[corisande]

"Lithuania is not a state that can stand permanently by itself, as recent events have proved, if indeed proof were needed. She must eventually either be absorbed in a reconstituted large Russia or join herself in some organic way to Poland, and it may reasonably be argued that the latter is the preferable alternative. The ethnographic question is largely, if not wholly, bound up with the eventual orientation of Lithuania. Vilna itself has a non-Lithuanian majority, and, in the event of a Russian absorption of Lithuania, its assignment to Russia would be objectionable."

A touch of clairvoyance there!

[charlesmessenger]

Centurion

I have been trying to PM you, but your inbox is clearly full. Would be most grateful if you would e-mail me.

Charles M

[centurion]

Centurion

I have been trying to PM you, but your inbox is clearly full. Would be most grateful if you would e-mail me.

Charles M

Sorry Charles - the new "messenger" service that masquerades as PM is a b****r to use and I hadn't realised. PM me now and there's room otherwise I'll e mail in the morning

[corisande]

Carr was with the Lithuanian Air Force from 28/10/19 - 1/3/20

Are these the same dates as Crozier in Lithuania?

[charlesmessenger]

David

Crozier's official dates were 10/9/19 - 1/3/20, but he did not arrive in-country until 22/10/19 since he first needed to organise his team.

Charles M

[corisande]

Thanks Charles

So all the British officers left 1 March 1920?

[IPT]

But during Shackleton's Antarctic expedition in 1921, they were discussing that the expedition members had all been in far flung places the previous christmas. Carr was said to have been in Lithuania.

"Afterwards the Boss asked each man where he had spent the last Christmas, and it was interesting to find how much scattered over the globe we had

been. The Boss was in London, Mcllroy and myself were in Central Africa, Worsley in Iceland, Macklin in Singapore, Jeffrey in New York, Kerr in Hamburg,

Carr in Lithuania, McLeod in Mauritius, Naisbitt in Rio, and Young in Cape Town. Green was wandering somewhere round the East as steward of a tramp

steamer, and of all of us only the Boss, Hussey and Marr, the Boy Scout, seemed to have spent theirs at home. "

And that's all the excuse I need to throw this Carr anecdote in, against the express conditions of the original poster;

Whilst the square-sail was being taken in a corner carrying a heavy block and shackle was whipped across the deck, catching Carr a violent blow in the face.

He was badly stunned, but picked himself up, with hand to face, blood flowing freely from between his fingers. When examined, it was found that his nose was broken. After some trouble the surgeons replaced the bones in position, but Carr, standing in front of a looking-glass, attempted to improve the work, with the result that the operation had to be carried out a second time, with pertinent remarks from Hussey as to the effects upon his personal appearance if further interfered with.

[corisande]

against the express conditions of the original poster

Original Poster ? Dreadful fellow

[centurion]

Carr and the other 3 RAF officers appear to have been hired in response to the diplomatic row in early October that I've already referred to so it would seem that the organisation of this would seen to have been arranged in Lithuania (probably by Pranas Hiksa who had taken over the flying school in April 1919) whilst Crozier was still in Paris with the Lithuanian mission. Hiksa had flown with the RFC and RAF. On 16th December 1919 the first 34 Lithuanian Flying Officers passed out of the Flying school relieving the pressure for the use of foreign pilots and observers.

[corisande]

Carr and the other 3 RAF officers appear to have been hired in response to the diplomatic row in early October

I may be trying to over simplify this, but am I right therefore in saying that there were only 4 RAF officers serving in Lithuanian Air Force and they were

Major C R Carr. F.G.McFie, Francis Hiks (? sic) and P R Bowen?

[IPT]

Francis hiks is Pranas Hiksa? (Pranas translates as Franz on google). He was a Russian/LIthuanian who had just graduated from the British Aviation School as a Lt when he returned to Lithuania following the October rising.

I've found an A.W. Saunders, aviation section of the Lithuanian army - 12/11/19 released 17/1/1920

ADVENTUROUS CAREER.

AUCKLAND AIR CRASH VICTIM.

PERTH. May 22.

Captain A. W. Saunders,' who was killed in an air crash at Auckland yes- terday, was well known in Perth, where his mother, brother, and sister reside. In the course of an adventurous career he saw active flying service during the war, and after the Armistice became a King's Courier. ' Later he fought Bolshevik airmen on the Lithuanian front, and rejoined the Royal Air Force, seeing active service on the north-west frontier in Afghan- istan. He was one of the pioneer pilots on the Perth-Derbv air route, and was chief pilot on the Sydney-Ade- laide mall route with Australian Aerial Services.

[corisande]

Yes, I think you are right. I had just reached that conclusion

Write up on him in Lithuanian Wikipedia but you can get the instant translation

7 October 1917 graduated from the Royal Air Force Aviation School, acquired the rank of lieutenant. In the event of October Revolution he returned to Lithuania.

I'll have an explore on A.W. Saunders, died 1930

[IPT]

This is the site i've just been exploring.

Here's Carr's page, which translates as "dismissed from the army 12/02/1920.

http://translate.goo...Fpage.php%3F151

EDIT - Link goes elsewhere. Just use the search or Ieskoti as us Lithuanians call it.

[corisande]

Fascinating site on Lithuanian Air Force - it's no wonder I get no work done when there are so many side roads to explore

There is quite a bit about A W Saunders in France here

And relatives here in Rootschat thread He is Alfred William, and there is a MIC for him

And according to this site Saunders shot down 12 German aircraft

(us Lituanians had no problem with your link!)

[charlesmessenger]

[so all the British officers left 1 March 1920?

That is correct. As for Saunders, he had a bad plane crash in spring 1917 and smashed up his face very badly. He certainly did have 12 victories confirmed and was awarded the DFC. His jaws continued to give him problems and he attended miedcal boards in UK on 18/12/19 and 18/2/20 and so only spent a very short time in Lithuania. He did succeed in gaining a disability pension shortly before he emigrated to NZ. This inofmration comes from his personal file, which I was looking at yesterday at Kew.

Charles M

[centurion]

EDIT - Link goes elsewhere. Just use the search or Ieskoti as us Lithuanians call it.

The link works fine for me but gives rise to some confusion. The Blue Rider History of the Lithuanian Airforce (written by Richard Humberstone based on information and (many) photos supplied by Dr.Vigilius Uloza of Kaunas) includes the following

"

"A flying school commenced operations under Fugalevicius , a former Imperial Russian Air Service officer, whilst the Aviation Unit became an independent group under ing Petras Petronis."

" ....the retirement of Fugalevicius due to an injury suffered whilst flying a mission over Red territory on 1 April(1919). He was replaced by 1st Lt Pranas Hiksa who had previously served with the RFC and RAF." [ It also says that Hiksa handed over to Lt Jurgis Dobkevicus some time around August 1920]

This does not match the chronology on the site at the end of the link so I am faced with info from 2 Lithuanian sources that contadicts.

[corisande]

info from 2 Lithuanian sources that contradicts.

I am getting the impression that all sources about Lithuania contradict.

However I do think that we have raised enough questions here, and there are enough of us working on it, that given time, we will reach a consensus,

[corisande]

I think I am getting somewhere now with the 4 RAF men in Lithuania

There is a good list here of all the Lithuanian Air Force people. The British men are:-

1. R C Carr

2. P R Bowen

3. A W Saunders

4. Thomas James Randolph

I have researched MacFie now from the cradle to the grave (interesting man) and I can see that he never was in Air Force, either RAF or Lithuanian

Carr, Bowen and Saunders - I can find out a lot about, but Thomas James Randolph stumps me so far. It stumped the compiler of that Lithuanian list of Air Force men, so I suspect his name may not be quite correct.

Anyone help with Thomas James Randolph ?

[charlesmessenger]

Thomas James Randolph does not appear on the list of Crozier's officers. I therefore believe that he was in the Lithuanian Air Force post March 1920. Could he be American?

Charles M

[corisande]

Thomas James Randolph

Yes he might have been American. Certainly there is no pilots certificate that I can find for anyone with anything like that name.

I thought that perhaps the Lithuanian list had it wrong and that perhaps his name could have been James Randolph Thomas, but no pilots license for that either.

[IPT]

I thought that the Lithuanian list was surname first, which would make it James Randolf Thomas, however I can't find him under any combination.

Certainly, Randolph seems to be a more common name in America, and so far we can't prove that he was there at the same time.

[corisande]

Yes, on reflection it is James Randolph Thomas. The list has no commas, but they are putting surnames first. I realise that the guy doing that web page ran out of enthusiasm towards the end of the alphabet, and has done none of them yet - perhaps one day?

I had tried to find a pilot license for a Thomas or a birth or a marriage or a census entry, but could find nothing on "James Randolph" written in full

[charlesmessenger]

I wonder whether Corisande's Lithuanian Air Force list covers pilots per se only. We are fairly certain from other sources that MacFie worked with Carr, even though he had no aviation experience. Bowen, on the other hand, was an experienced Observer and it was surely on account of this that he was in Lithuania and hence also worked with Carr.

Charles M

[corisande]

Charles

Bowen, as you say an Observer, and who was not a qualified pilot, is certainly on that list. So to that extent the list is more than just pilots

However as has been point out MacFie appears to be referred to as part of the Lithuanian Air Force and worked with/for Carr.

End of the day I am at a loss to see if he was one of the 4 British officers referred to as being in the Lithuanian Air Force. Whilst I can get the "external" references to him working with Carr, I cannot (in my limited ability to use Lithuanian web sites) find him on any Lithuanian research actually in the Lithuanian Air Force.

For what it is worth, given your interest in Crozier, whilst MacFie ended up working as adjutant to Crozier in Ireland, Bowen ended up in a low level "grunt" job, back as a serving soldier (ie not working for Crozier) and an undercover man on the streets of Dublin.