shorncliffe Posted 6 September , 2010 Share Posted 6 September , 2010 Hi All During the summer months with the rabbits digging their burrows I have found quite a few .303 used cartridges which have come to the surface. On close inspection a few are dated 1943, one dated 1939 and another dated 1956. now all the rest about 30 in total have now markings on the bottom and they have not worn off as the cartridges are all in good condition. I know the area around Shorncliffe has been used by the army for nearly 200 years but I was wondering if these could date from the First World War or could they just be ones used during WW2 that were never marked, perhaps blanks for training. If anyone has any ideas I would be most interested. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59165 Posted 6 September , 2010 Share Posted 6 September , 2010 Well,they're not blanks,Pete. Blanks wouldn't look like an average empty case. Can you post a photo,pref macro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 6 September , 2010 Share Posted 6 September , 2010 I will be very interested to hear the answer to this. I suspect TonyE will be your best bet...as he (literally) "wrote the book" on this! Pictures would indeed be good as I have never seen a totally unmarked .303" cartridge case. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 7 September , 2010 Share Posted 7 September , 2010 Yes I agree Tony will know for sure. Didn't the Japanese make .303 with no headstamps? I'm looking for tyhe quote for that. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 7 September , 2010 Share Posted 7 September , 2010 The only unheadstamped cases likely to be around in any quantity are L Mark 9z blanks from the 1950s, but as Dave says, fired blank cases are instantly recognisable by the open petals of the crimp at the neck. Blanks from WWI would either have been headstamped as Blank Mark V or used reject ball cases, and the same applied to WW2. There was one small batch of unheadstamped tracer made and issued in 1942, but that was ordered to be loaded into Vickers belts. Japanese 7.7 Rimmed (.303) was unheadstamped from 1943, but I don't think that is very likely. Photos will be best,but I still think blanks is the most likely answer. Who knows, I might have fired some of them. I remember doing night ops at Shorncliffe as a cadet in 1958/9! Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 7 September , 2010 Share Posted 7 September , 2010 Japanese 7.7 Rimmed (.303) was unheadstamped from 1943, but I don't think that is very likely. See I have soaked up some information! Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shorncliffe Posted 7 September , 2010 Author Share Posted 7 September , 2010 Hi all I think they must be from the 1950's which is very disappointing as this area was used extensively during the First World War but I am yet to find any items relating to that period. These all came from the so called WW1 trench system which can still be seen at shorncliffe. The earliest bullet case I have found is dated 1926 which I have showed in the scan. Thanks to all who have replied to my post. peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 7 September , 2010 Share Posted 7 September , 2010 Yes, blanks, as you can tell from the unringed primers. The other tell tale is that as there is very little pressure in a blank the primers are not flattened against the bolt head. Compare the domed appearance of the blank primers with the flat primer on the 1926 ball round. Your other 1926 case is Canadian and was made at Dominion Arsenal. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shorncliffe Posted 7 September , 2010 Author Share Posted 7 September , 2010 Thanks for the reply Tony, and as you have said these must be blanks from the 1950's. So my search goes on for a cartridge case dating from the First World War that would have been fired in the training trenches at Shorncliffe Camp. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 7 September , 2010 Share Posted 7 September , 2010 Just a sec. Am I missing something? If these are blanks - don't the cases look totally different (from the side view) - where instead of having a bullet (in an unspent round) - or nothing (in a fired case), there is a crimped metal top? (where the bullet would be) This was raised in post #2. Or were these wooden bulleted blanks or something? Mystified.... Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 7 September , 2010 Share Posted 7 September , 2010 Chris - I understand your point, but a fired blank has the petals of the crimp opened out so the case looks like a normal fired ball case except that the neck is "serated". I don't have a fired blank case to hand to photograph but next time I am at the range I will fire one. Meanwhile, it would be useful to have a full side view of the cases Shorncliffe found. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shorncliffe Posted 12 September , 2010 Author Share Posted 12 September , 2010 Hi all Have attached a scan of the bullets found at the so called WW1 trenches at Shorncliffe. Sorry about the poor quality of the picture. Today i found another dated 1926 but still no sign of any WW1 items. Regards Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 13 September , 2010 Share Posted 13 September , 2010 My case rests! Apart from the left hand shorter case those are ordinary training blanks.If dated pre WW2 they will be L Mark V blanks, and if 1950s will be L Mark 9z blanks. They are essentially the same thing except the earlier rounds are cordite loaded and the latter ones nitro-cellulose. There was also a nitro-cellulose loaded version of the Mark V during WW2 so why they changed the nomenclature post war to Mark 9z is not known. Now for that left hand round. It looks like a seperated case, which of course can happen, but should not if the rifle is properly maintained. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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