The future of the AIF identication prrocess

[Tjap]

Gidday all,

I have been waiting for some time to see what the Australian MOD were going to put on their website by way of updating the list of the fallen who might be in the Pheasant Wood cemetery. Can anyone tell me if a further announcement is anticipated?

Early on in proceedings the Fromelles Discusion Group put up the names of those falling at the battle of Fromelles and listed on the memorial at VC Corner. Whilst I am aware that the VC Corner list is not comprehensive, it is a useful starting point with about 1300 names.

Some of the fallen whose identifies have been established were not on this list but were on the Villers-Brettoneux Memorial because the dates of their deaths were given as after 19/20 July 1916.

Has anyone come up with a plausible list of possible soldiers remaining to be identified that includes those on the VB Memorial who might be amongst the fallen at Pheasant Wood?

I have looked at the VC Corner list and compiled a database by battalion of these linking them to the aif.adfa.edu.au:8080 database which in the majority of cases gives place of birth and also details of the soldier's parents together with some links to the NAA and Red Cross databases where relevant.

This shows that quite a substantial proportion of the soldiers (233 - correction 232 - I had added in an alias by mistake) were born outside of Australia. including Belgium 1, Canada 1, Channel Islands 1, Denmark 2, England 140, India 3 (correction 2), Ireland 13, Malaya 1, NZ 15, Netherlands 1, Poland 1, Russia 1, Scotland 40, South Africa 3, Sweden 2, Switzerland 2, USA 2, Wales 4 - 97 on my list have place of birth unstated. So there would seem to be further scope for those with an interest in British genealogy to move the identification process forward.

With about 100 soldiers still awaiting identification, the task of tracing suitable relatives of the remainder is quite a big one, but the chances of success at around 1 in 10 are still heaps better than for the British boys.

Still trying to help and happy to share this database with anyone interested - the links to the aid database may be helpful to some and not all the links were straightforward to find,

Best,

Howard

[Tjap]

Ah well,

In the face of the silence I have attempted to answer my own question by setting up a database of all the AIF fallen (10,857) on the VB memorial from the CWGC database, sorting it by date of death and then looking at the individuals listed to find the ones from the core battalions at Fromelles plus the other units such as the 14 MGC and 15 FE plus the light trench mortar unit casualties and Pioneer battalions for the same dates (19-21 July 1916, so far)

I note that there is a 5 Pioneer casualty (Fitch) on the updated Fromelles.net list together with a listing for Barr who is according to the CWGC info buried in a numbered grave at Fleurbaix.

A few of these are of British descent so might be added to the appropriate ancestry tree.

Anyhow for what it's worth I append a csv database of "additional" names from the VB memorial who might be candidates for the Pheasant Wood Cemetery and await the views of the pundits who have been through the diaries to give their opinions.

Best wishes,

Howard

VBM- 19-21 July 1916additional likely Fromelles casualties.txt

[Auimfo]

Howard,

Sorry but I hadn't seen your original post.

The list on our website is about as updated as you will find. It lists all those currently identified and those still remaining unidentified but 'most likely' to have been buried in the mass graves. (including taking into account all those on the VB Memorial which was realised very early on in the investigation).

That being said, as has been shown by the initial identifications, there are those who we did not expect to find and thus in reality it's possible that 'any' still missing men can be considered potentially among those now buried at the Pheasant Wood Cemetery.

BARR is one we added ourselves along with several other names who currently have 'named' graves. This was a result of an investigation we carried out after it was discovered two 'identified' soldiers fit the same category (SCOTT and PRATT). We then checked the files of all those with named graves and of all those it appears original burial errors may have been made with four others (possibly five) - BARR among them.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Tjap]

Tim,

Thanks for your comments. Finding the anomalous entry on Fitch was a lucky thing - there are 1400 on the VBM memorial from 23 to 31-7-16 and I'm working my way through them all slowly

From my 'reading' of the present situation there may be a case for expanding the list of possible fallen at Pheasant Wood slightly.

It seems from correspondence I had from Professor Dennis on another matter that here were three 'tests' that indicated the likelihood of a man being in the German mass grave at Fromelles:

(1) whether his name appeared on a German death list (which indicated that the Germans had recovered his body);

(2) whether the Germans returned his identity disc (also indicating that they had recovered his body; and

(3) whether they returned his personal effects (a further indication that they had his body at some stage).

Insisting that all three of these applied might be too tight a definition. e.g. some men may not have been carrying any personal possessions to be returned. So, it may be worth looking at the category of soldiers for whom some documentary evidence exists e.g. on the Red Cross files for the soldier having fallen in the area of the German trenches and not having been recovered.

I accept, having read many of these battlefield testaments that the reliability of these reports is often 'suspect' but it may be a way forward to widening the trawl, but not unnecessarily too widely.

Anyhow, and for what it is worth these are the men from the Villers Brettoneux Memorial who fell at Fromelles and who I believe might be eligible for inclusion:-

BALSDON, JAMES, Private, 2274, 30th Battn, aged ~26, Died 20/7/16 according to German Nachlassachen

26.8.16 - confirmed by Capt Mills Mar 1919; b Blythe; England. Mother; Mrs Margaret Balsdon.

BILLS, THOMAS HENRY, Private, 605, 31st Battn, aged ~25, Appeared on German death list dated 4.11.16

Died 19/7/16 according to German Nachlassachen 12.10.16 - confirmed by Lt Jacobi Oct 1919, b. Melbourne,

Brother William J. Bills; 71 Tarrangower Street; Yarraville; Melbourne; Victoria

DUNN, LESLIE CLARKE, Private, 641, 31st Battn, aged ~28, On German death list of 4-11-16

(nachlassachen12.10.1916) another note on his file says 'buried in vicinity of Fleurbaix, Sh[eet] 36 NW H.21d.'

** ; b. Richmond; VIC. Wife; Mrs. Lilian Mary Dunn; 142 Dudley Street; West Melbourne; Victoria.

GOULDING, JOHN JOSEPH, Private, 555, 31st Battn, aged 33, Killed and buried near Fromelles 19/7/16 - on

German Nachlassachen list of 26.8.1916; Holbeach; Lincs; England. Mother; Mrs. Julia Alice Goulding;

O'Connell Street; West End; South Brisbane.misc Originally NOK was mother; Mrs. Alice Upton; O'Connell

Street; West End; South Brisbane; subsequently Mother; Mrs Julia Alice Goulding; O'Connell Street; West

End; Brisbane (7 March 1916); address subsequently; 623 Brunswick Street; New Farm; Brisbane (20

October 1919). From 1923 the next of kin becomes; Brother; Mr W Marshall Goulding; Murwillumbah; New

South Wales as the mother died on 19 July 1922.

JAMIESON, WILLIAM ALEXANDER, Private, 2144, 31st Battn, aged 19, 'The above name appeared on

German list of dead dated 4-11-16.'Buried Fleurbaix Sh. 36. N.W. ** Next-of-kin disc found at German War

Office; Son of Duncan and Agnes Jamieson; of Scunpon St.; Tumut; New South Wales. Born at Junee; New

South Wales.

MASON, JAMES LOWTHER, Private, 470, 31st Battn, aged 43, On German Nachlassachen 26-08-16

personal effects listed but not forwarded grave unknown killed 19.7.16 and buried at Fromelles according to

German report; Son of John and Margaret Mason. Born at Canterbury; New Zealand. Brother John Mason;

Clevedon; Auckland; New Zealand

WOODMAN, HAROLD GEORGE, Company Sergeant Major, 794, 31st Battn, aged 30, Appeared on German

death list dated 4.11.16 Died 19/7/16 according to German Nachlassachen 12.10.16 disc received from

Germany and forwarded to nok 'Buried in the vicinity of Fleurbaix, Sh.36 N.W.' **; Son of Charles Harold and

Annie Woodman; of 10; Narong Rd.; Caulfield; Victoria. Born at South Yarra; Victoria.

** The following also have the handwritten notes added buried in vicinity of Fromelles Sheet 36 NW H 21d (a

description that matches many of those above as appearing on the German death lists and also subsequently identified - but I accept that these may be simply a general description that applies to more of the fallen than is justified)

DENTON, REGINALD GEORGE, Private, 629, 31st Battn, aged 28, Seen wandering in first line German trenches with jaw shot away 19.7.16 - cert KIA in 1917 AIF 'Buried at Fleurbaix sh 36 NW. h 21.d',; Son of Henry and Emeline Denton; of 652; Bridge Rd.; Richmond; Victoria; Australia

ROBERTSON, ROBERT, Private, 3891, 31st Battn, aged ~26, KIA "21.7.16" Handwritten note on B.103: 'Buried in the vicinity of Fleurbaix, Sh.36 N.W.'; b Moyston; VIC. Nok Sister; Mrs Mary McDonnell; O'Connell Street; North Melborne; Victoria

ROWLANDS, WESLEY RICHARD, Private, 1877, 31st Battn, aged 24, KIA "21.7.16" Handwritten note on B.103: 'Buried in the vicinity of Fleurbaix, Sh.36 N.W.'; Son of John and Jane Rowlands; of 1; Pine Avenue; Mildura; Victoria. Born at Homebush.

WARBY, CHARLES FRANCIS, Private, 2436, 31st Battn, aged ~36, KIA "21.7.16" Handwritten note on B.103: 'Buried in the vicinity of Fleurbaix, Sh.36 N.W.'; b Inverell; NSW. Nok Mother; Mrs. M. Preston; Post Office; Inverell; New South Wales

Best,

Howard

[Auimfo]

Balsdon, Bills, Dunn, Goulding, Jamieson, Mason and Woodman are on our list and have been there since the outset.

Denton, Robertson, Rowlands and Warby are not on the list of 'probables' because the comment 'Buried in the vicinity of Fromelles' was just a standard notation written on many of the service files and does not specifically refer to having been buried by the Germans. None of the required criteria are evident in their files to justify their inclusion but as I said before that doesn't mean they definitely aren't at Pheasant Wood - just that their records don't have anything that indicates any likelihood.

You can trust me when I say that all the service files and red cross files have been examined with a fine tooth comb and those fullfilling even just one of the criteria indicating burial by the Germans are on the list found on our website.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Tjap]

Cheers Tim,

I will need to keep a check - my mind has very severely wandered and looking to another page on my database I see that you have all those and that I'd ticked them off already.

time for a cold shower and early bed methinks.

best,

Howard

[Tjap]

<snip>

You can trust me when I say that all the service files and red cross files have been examined with a fine tooth comb and those fullfilling even just one of the criteria indicating burial by the Germans are on the list found on our website.

Cheers,

Tim L.

Point taken Tim

I have switched my attention to looking at the list of UK born on the list who have yet to be identified.

I have sent further letters to the Mt DNA relatives of George Honey and dropped you a line re the Mt DNA relative in Victoria for Horace Robinson in the hope that you or somebody else can check with them as to whether they submitted sample.

I have traced a new Mt DNA line for George Wass through his oldest sister Eliza and am waiting to hear back from the messages I have sent to the relevant women.

I have traced and located the daughter of Sidney Broom's sister Beatrice (86 yrs)and the daughter of James Balsdon's sister Blanche (75yrs), so they are both now getting on a bit.

Can you please let me know if these latter two are of interest to you and whether I should try to contact them.

Best regards,

Howard

[Auimfo]

Thanks Howard,

I've sent you an email with some information that should be useful to you.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Tjap]

For information and in case other relatives without a relevant DNA link may be interested, I am continuing to work my way through the list of the 24 English born AIF soldiers on the list who remain unidentified, starting with the ones I'd already worked plus the ones who weren't in the original inquiries.

At the moment I have traced DNA relevant relatives for James Balsdon 2274, Sidney Broom, 1522, Percy Greenwood, 3115a, George Honey 1291, William Wass 239, Sydney William Dennis 1252, Walter Allen Grace 1537 and Horace Frederick Robinson 1312.

Best,

Howard

[Tjap]

And today I've confirmed an Mt DNA relevant contact for Pte. 4873 Joseph Scott of the 54th Battn, 5th AIF. So fingers crossed we may get a buccal scrape.

Best,

Howard

[Fedelmar]

Would you please pass on the family trees and the contact details of these soldiers to me Howard.

Thank you.

Bright Blessings

Sandra