Map References - Doiran Front

[akduerden]

I am transcribing the 26th Division CRA War Dairy and from about mid-1916 onwards a series of references are used to describe locations that were fired upon. I am aware of the Grid/ square reference system used on the Western front rench maps but this is not the same. I have a trench map of a small area of the Doiran front but the grid on the right side does not match and there is no grid on bottom or top.

Some of the number sequences are as follows:

Pt.1204-1862

Pt.12170-18315

Pt.11188-18260, also 11975-18430

Fired on trench at 1198-1822

shelled ravine 12260-18395 to 12340-12403

Any help will be appreciated.

Andrew

[Rockdoc]

You're right that references in Salonika bear no relation to the algebraics used on the Western Front. It's based on a numbered grid system. I think the distance between the grid lines is 1km, probably because the first mapping by the Entente was done by the French and all subsequent maps needed to match. The first three digits are the N-S line to the West of the position. The next one or, occasionally, two give the exact W-E position in tenths or hundredths of the distance to the N-S line to the East. The other half is the same for the N-S position, working from South to North.

I don't have a map showing as far north as the first one but the position would be about 1km East of Devedzili and 2km North of there. The others are on the Gjevgjeli 1:50000map. The second one is in the vicinity of Krastali. The third one is about 2km north of Bogorodica and about 1.5km W of Stojakovo. It looks like a patch of high ground so perhaps an OP. 11975-18430 is a valley area about 0.5km North of Devedzili. 1198-1822 is on a slope on the South side of Flat Iron Hill, about 1.5km South of Devedzili. The ravine is about 0.75km North of Horseshoe Hill/Pip Ridge and runs more or less E-W.

The Salonika Campaign Society has recently bought a series of original maps that it intends to publish in the very near future so life should get much easier for those of us interested in this Theatre.

Keith

[CROONAERT]

You're right that references in Salonika bear no relation to the algebraics used on the Western Front. It's based on a numbered grid system.

The system used in Salonika (and Italy, etc) actually WAS used on the Western Front. In fact, in allied use, that system covered more of the Western Front than any other method... it's the French system which is not all that dissimilar to that used on the modern OS maps.

(...and you are correct in saying that they are 1000 m squares)

Dave.

[Rockdoc]

Which makes the use of the other system in France even odder, Dave. It couldn't have helped at the boundaries between the allied nations to have incompatible maps, could it?

Kith

[akduerden]

Keith,

Thanks for the reply. One learns something new every day. Really appreciate the consie answer. I was wondering where I can get a copy of the Gjevgjeli 1:50000map.

Andrew

[CROONAERT]

Which makes the use of the other system in France even odder, Dave. It couldn't have helped at the boundaries between the allied nations to have incompatible maps, could it?

Wouldn't have helped at all, no - possibly the reason behind the adoption of a unified system post-war?

To be honest, though, I don't think there was any real problem as, in some places and periods , French maps were issued to the British and vice-versa. I'm unsure of what was issued to artillery units at the boundaries (versions of both, i'd suspect), but I do know that the French continued to print and update trench maps of sectors which were miles away from the nearest French troops throughout the war making me think that some of these must have been in British use. Though not interchangeable, neither method of map referencing is particularly complex or difficult to learn, so, as long as the correct map was to hand, there may never have been any real major problems.

Dave.

[Rockdoc]

A cynic would say that it would have been Hobson's Choice! I've no doubt that work-arounds would be found but it makes me wonder whether the retention of their own system by the British didn't in some way reflect their strong desire not to become tightly involved with France. It always strikes me as a little odd that someone called French should have been a Francophobe!

Keith

[CROONAERT]

it makes me wonder whether the retention of their own system by the British didn't in some way reflect their strong desire not to become tightly involved with France.

Similar thoughts have also crossed my mind in the past both about this particular subject and in other occurances too. I suppose ,though, that when you get two fiercly independant (and, dare I say it...stubborn?) nations having to fight alongside each other, then each will want to conduct their 'own' particular wars in their own particular (and possibly perculiar (to the other)) way.

At least the Yanks, Belgies and others were happy to accept what was already available and not try to throw their own systems into the mesh!!!

Dave.

[Rockdoc]

The Yanks had to use a lot of equipment provided by the British and French so why not maps? Especially maps. I wonder how many of their troops, including the officers, had much geographical knowledge of Europe before they landed?. Hmmmm... Going well off topic here. Better cease & desist!

Keith

(PS Have just ordered a copy of your Other Theatres Maps CD)