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Liz in Eastbourne

21st Battalion KRRC - the original Yeomen

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Liz in Eastbourne

Iley's SN was C/12336, which is a standard SN for 21/KRRC, so I'm not sure what you're asking there?

Obviously nothing sensible! Either I have mixed him up with Bentley himself, if you see what I mean (I looked at that thread a few times) or there's another man I'll eventually rediscover...Sorry ! and thanks for explaining about Bentley. Yes - I have found some of this discussion of numbers otherwise I would not even have grasped the basic fact about the 21st Bn numbers starting at C/12000, but I take your point about them not being entirely straightforward.

Liz

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MBrockway

This was posted in a thread I began a few years ago when I was first looking into Rfn Richard Johnson.

It was kindly provided by BottsGreys (Chris), and I'm sure it will be of interest and relevance in this thread, especially as the anniversary is fast approaching.

Annals of the KRRC Vol. V, The Great War by Major-General Sir Steuart Hare. Pages 166-169. - 15 September, 1916

<snip>

Cheers,

Nigel

Nigel,

I'm sure I've posted the 21/KRRC battalion war diary entries for 14-16 Sep 1916 somewhere on the Forum, and not that long ago either, but try as I might, I just can't get the new Forum "search" tool to reveal it!

I distinctly remember a discussion centred on the exact casualty figures.

Flers is of particular interest to me as my grandfather was there (though not with the Yeoman Rifles) and 15 Sep is also my birthday - LOL!

TBH your extract from the Annals above is a lot more readable than the WD anyway and has all the key info,

Cheers,

Mark

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Liz in Eastbourne

There's been so much useful stuff I wonder if I have missed this KRRC Journal article previously? I expect you know it, Mark. I read the one about the Crossley twins you posted, and that was where I saw the recommendation for the Eden book and the book written by Gerald V Dennis A Kitchener Man's Bit, which was harder to find but I've ordered it. Anyway here's this KRRC article from 2006 about Dennis and the 21st Bn. It includes a photograph of a number of men with the Fevershams on 3 May 1916 , but the only one I think I've seen mentioned here is Trenchtrotter's man Harry Thompson - have you seen this, TT?

KRRC Association: Gerald Dennis - Soldier & Schoolteacher

EDIT The link above has been updated (thanks, Mark) but may not last, in which case search on the KRRC Association website. Go forward to this post for the photograph, where Mark has improved the quality as well.

Edited by Liz in Eastbourne
Updating link.

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trenchtrotter

Liz,

Thank you so much for this. It brings the man back. Like seeing a ghost. Very poignient.

Regards

TT

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Liz in Eastbourne

TT - I am glad I have found something new to you - I thought it was sad too, seeing those keen young soldiers and especially knowing Harry would be dead in less than 5 months. I would love to find a photo of Hardcastle.

Now here's another look back at a thread on this forum, KRRC- local newspaper, where two Pallisters, of whom photographs are given from a local paper, were discussed. Only one was mentioned as being 21st KRRC but in fact they both were and I think they are brothers.

George Nelson Pallister C/12168 21st Bn

Born c. 1894

d 17.9.1915 (just after Flers) Thiepval Memorial (CWGC)

He and his elder brother were living in Boston Spa, Leeds, sons of a tailor, also called George, with a large family, in 1901.

William Pallister C/12357 also enlisted in the 21st Bn, in York on 16th November 1915. Born c. 1888. He was a groom.

He was in the 18th Bn at the time of his death on 17.4.1918, so of course that's on his CWGC and SDGW records. He is said by SDGW to have died of wounds and is buried (? forgot to check) anyway commemorated in the Denain Communal Cemetery.

I can't find George's military records on Ancestry.

Two more for B company.

Liz

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MBrockway

There's been so much useful stuff I wonder if I have missed this KRRC Journal article previously? I expect you know it, Mark. I read the one about the Crossley twins you posted, and that was where I saw the recommendation for the Eden book and the book written by Gerald V Dennis A Kitchener Man's Bit,

Liz,

The Crossley twins 'Brothers in Arms' article was in the 2003 KRRC Association Journal.

That same edition also contains an article with short extracts from the diary of Cpl Jim Ducker, 'A' Coy, 21/KRRC covering June 1916 to Nov 1917 and including Flers.

Jim was from Canklow, Rotherham.

I don't think it's available on-line and I'm afraid I can't scan anything at the moment with my computers barely limping along. It's also too long for me to transcribe by hand. Maybe another Pal with a copy of the 2003 Journal could help out.

Cheers,

Mark

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MBrockway

Two more for B company.

Liz

Liz,

Be wary about assuming company allocations based merely on the original company geographical associations listed in the KRRC Chronicle extract I sent you (see your post higher up).

Those allocations were in use very early on when the battalion was forming and I suspect they would have very quickly broken down as new drafts and men returning from wounds were posted.

You'll see for example that Cpl Ducker was posted to 'A' Coy despite coming from Rotherham, which IIRC is in the West Riding. The 'originals' of 'A' Coy were recruited from the North and East Ridings.

The same goes for the KRRC C/12xxx service numbers. Although that SN range was allocated for 21/KRRC, there would have been Regulars and more experienced New Army men posted into the battalion even from the very outset to act as "seedcorn" around which to build the new battalion. Such men would not have had C/12xxx SNs. With time, transfers due to woundings, replacement drafts etc meant that all the KRRC battalions became well jumbled up and you'll find C/12xxx SNs in all the KRRC battalions (e.g. John Hardcastle in 2/KRRC) and non-C/12xxx SNs in 21/KRRC. You'll even see men from the Rifle Brigade and the affiliated London Regiment territorial units.

The 21/KRRC company links and the KRRC/RB service number schema are useful guides but cannot be 100% relied upon.

Cheers,

Mark

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Liz in Eastbourne

That same edition also contains an article with short extracts from the diary of Cpl Jim Ducker, 'A' Coy, 21/KRRC covering June 1916 to Nov 1917 and including Flers.

Jim was from Canklow, Rotherham.

I don't think it's available on-line and I'm afraid I can't scan anything at the moment with my computers barely limping along. It's also too long for me to transcribe by hand. Maybe another Pal with a copy of the 2003 Journal could help out.

Thanks, Mark, that sounds exceptionally interesting.. But there's no rush. Maybe someone else has it as you say. I wasn't really asking for anything more - this will be a big bonus! - but wondering if you had seen the article to which I posted the link. I was chuffed to find it.

In time, it will be great if we can assemble a comprehensive guide to resources on this one thread, don't you think?

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Liz in Eastbourne

Liz,

Be wary about assuming company allocations based merely on the original company geographical associations listed in the KRRC Chronicle extract I sent you (see your post higher up).

Those allocations were in use very early on when the battalion was forming and I suspect they would have very quickly broken down as new drafts and men returning from wounds were posted.

Mark

I do understand that, and I think I have said before that I knew (i.e had absorbed it from your earlier postings) that it wasn't 100% reliable. But I was talking here about the men at the very beginning of their service. In the absence of other evidence, it's not unreasonable at that stage to use the statement in the KRRC Chronicle extract you sent me (extensively quoted elsewhere) about how men were recruited, surely? Of those two Pallisters I was talking about, one died in Sept 1916 and the other was clearly transferred at some point to the 18th Bn, as I have said.

I'll put 'probably, at the outset, as far as we can tell from the rough guide' or something next time - the reason I do it at all is that my notion at the beginning was to find who these men were friendly with. Eden's book in dealing with 1916 suggests that he was, indeed, still close to the men he recruited and trained with, in C company, and they were from the geographical area indicated. Then as you say men were killed and replaced and it started to change its composition.

I note that Duckworth wasn't in the Coy I might have assumed, even at the outset. Come to that I know I haven't seen it stated that Hardcastle was in A company, but am guessing - did you by any chance see it on his military record, just to check it?

(EDIT: He was more probably in B company as Mulwith, near Ripon, where he lived, was in the West Riding.)

I am paying attention, Mark - honest!

Liz

Edited by Liz in Eastbourne

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MBrockway

Come to that I know I haven't seen it stated that Hardcastle was in A company, but am guessing - did you by any chance see it on his military record, just to check it?

Liz,

There's no mention of Hardcastle's company in his service records. It's quite rare to get that TBH.

Cheers,

Mark

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Dogflud

If you're going to find the company designation in the service papers, it'll more often than not be on Army Form B.122. The Company Conduct Sheet.

post-437-008619700 1283793195.jpg

Cheers,

Nigel

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MBrockway

Nigel,

Hardcastle's AF B122 has Company blank and doesn't even mention his battalion!

Mixed news too for William Pallister, C/12357 ...

He does have an AF B122 and it has Company as 'B'.

Trouble is the Battalion is '18th'. However that's in a heavier hand than the rest of the header section of the form and looks like it might have been added in after his transfer, overwriting the original battalion of '21st'.

I'd say the entry for his Coy was probably written when the AF B122 was first started and probably means he was in 'B' Coy, 21/KRRC, which fits the company geographical allocations, but we can't really be 100% certain from the AF B122.

(BTW - William Pallister's service record is misfiled on Ancestry under 'William Palister' (single L) if anyone wants to have a look)

Cheers,

Mark

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MBrockway

William Pallister C/12357 also enlisted in the 21st Bn, in York on 16th November 1915. Born c. 1888. He was a groom.

He was in the 18th Bn at the time of his death on 17.4.1918, so of course that's on his CWGC and SDGW records. He is said by SDGW to have died of wounds and is buried (? forgot to check) anyway commemorated in the Denain Communal Cemetery.

Liz,

William Pallister, C/12357, appears to have actually attested at his home village of Boston Spa on 13 Nov 1915 before going to York for his medical etc. on 16 Nov. He joined the unit at Helmsley on 22 Nov 1915 and travelled to France on 5th/6th May 1916.

He received a gunshot wound to the head/neck while in the Support line with 21/KRRC between Hollebeke and St Eloi on 22 Jun 1917.

He was evacuated to hospital in Weymouth and did not return to France until 18 Oct 1917 when he was posted to 18th (Service) Battalion (Arts & Crafts), KRRC.

After spending the winter on the Italian Front, 18/KRRC arrived in the Albert/Bapaume area on 22 Mar 1918 straight into the middle of the Kaiserschlacht.

William was most likely wounded and captured on 24 Mar 1918 during the fighting retreat from Beugny to Bihucourt to the N of Bapaume, but he was not reported missing until 07 Apr 1918. He Died of Wounds on 17 Apr 1918. As he is buried in Denain, he probably died as a POW in the German military hospital there. The resonance with John Hardcastle's fate after Nieuport is uncanny.

He appears to have received a fatal wound (gunshot or shrapnel) to his right side which penetrated his lung.

The week or so of the Kaiserschlacht saw 18/KRRC reduced from nearly 900 ORs down to about 80.

:poppy: We will remember them :poppy:

I'll put the full details in Chris's main Pallister Topic later (see link in Liz's post above)

Cheers,

Mark

PS George Pallister fell on 17 Sep 1916, not 1915

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Liz in Eastbourne

Thanks very much for all this, Mark, and sorry about the typo on 1916.

By the way I found the R-numbered man I had mislaid, but he is atypical altogether and I would be surprised if he was an original Yeoman Rifleman. He was the subject of a thread two years ago, 21st KRRC KIA/DOW - Ernest Ottley, R25457, with the middle name Augustus or Austin. No northern connections visible. He died on 14 Dec 1916, after the two actions which had caused such terrible losses, so may well have joined them not long before. As he isn't one of my 'friends of Hardcastle' I am meanly leaving him aside from this thread -- would you agree?

Liz

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Liz in Eastbourne

I have been looking (not exhaustively, that can come later but just to get outline details and perhaps interest others) at the men on the photograph in the Gerald Dennis article, including officers, NCOs and men from Helmsley and district.

For starters, here's one I thought might interest you, Nigel, because he has the number after Johnson and enlisted at York on the same day, 25 Nov 1915, with approval by Feversham the next day at Helmsley, just like Johnson. The confusing thing at first glance is that both the CWGC and SDGW put him in 12th Bn KRRC. Mark will be able to advise on the likelihood of this battalion featuring in his life at all, but to my novice eye it looks highly unlikely and I would sooner blame a clerical (reversal of digits) error somewhere along the line.

He enlisted in the 21st Bn and was killed on the second of their disastrous days - 7th October 1916 - which looks pretty persuasive to me.

Gordon Robert Trenholme C/12453

Gardener, of Oswaldkirk, North Riding of Yorkshire (near Ampleforth, and Helmsley)

KIA 7.10.1916

Wonder why he enlisted in York? But anyway, he was from close to Helmsley and so included in the picture.

Liz

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MBrockway

For starters, here's <snip> Gordon Robert Trenholme C/12453 <snip>. He has the number after Johnson and enlisted at York on the same day, 25 Nov 1915, with approval by Feversham the next day at Helmsley, just like Johnson. The confusing thing at first glance is that both the CWGC and SDGW put him in 12th Bn KRRC. Mark will be able to advise on the likelihood of this battalion featuring in his life at all, but to my novice eye it looks highly unlikely and I would sooner blame a clerical (reversal of digits) error somewhere along the line.

He enlisted in the 21st Bn and was killed on the second of their disastrous days - 7th October 1916 - which looks pretty persuasive to me.

I disagree I'm afraid. 07 Oct 1916 was also a day of heavy losses for 12/KRRC who were in Action in the attack on Rainbow Trench as part of the Battle of the Transloy Ridges.

I see no reason why 12/KRRC could not have "featured in his life at all" and it most definitely does not look "highly unlikely."

Trenholme could easily have been posted out from Blighty as a replacement draft to 12/KRRC (or any of the other KRRC btns already out fighting) before 21/KRRC and 41st Div had fully mobilised. This was not unusual.

He might also have been wounded early after 21/KRRC's arrival at the Front and then posted back to 12/KRRC on his recovery - cf. William Pallister and John Hardcastle.

There's also the possibility that 21/KRRC men were transferred to 12/KRRC to help replenish the heavy losses 12/KRRC took before and during Guillemont - less likely but still a possibility.

So straight off there's three viable explanations as to why a rifleman with a C/12xxx SN might be killed while serving in 12/KRRC.

In general, when two *usually* reliable sources like CWGC and SDGW corroborate, then I need a lot of strong contrary evidence to disregard them. I refer you again to my caveats about placing too much trust on the KRRC/RB numbering schema - it's a useful guide but cannot be relied upon 100%, and certainly is a weaker source than either SDGW or CWGC.

Have you found Trenholme's service record? It sounds like you have at least his Attestation Form. A transfer from 21/KRRC to 12/KRRC should clearly show up in the service record. With my current computing difficulties downloading service records proceeds at glacial speeds for me. It took me nearly two hours to get all of William Pallister's record and I just don't have the time now. If you do have Trenholme's then e-mail it to me spread across several messages and I'll take a look for you.

Otherwise your only reliable method of finding his exact battalions is the BW&VM medal roll at Kew.

Gordon Robert Trenholme C/12453

Gardener, of Oswaldkirk, North Riding of Yorkshire (near Ampleforth, and Helmsley)

KIA 7.10.1916

Wonder why he enlisted in York? But anyway, he was from close to Helmsley and so included in the picture.

Liz

That's nothing! My grandfather lived in Tenbury Wells on the Herefordshire/Worcestershire/Shropshire border and enlisted in Winchester. He travelled there especially to make sure he got into the 60th.

The KRRC at the time was a highly-regarded elite regiment (likewise The Rifle Brigade) and people went to great lengths to enlist.

HTH

Cheers,

Mark

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Dogflud
The KRRC at the time was a highly-regarded elite regiment (likewise The Rifle Brigade) and people went to great lengths to enlist.

Very true. Lyn MacDonald in her book Somme tells of a group of South Africans who sailed to England specifically to get into the Rifle Brigade. As I understand it, Rifle Brigade and KRRC officers were drawn from as an elite class as those of the Guards and Household Cavalry. Their reputations as fighting regiments were unimpeachable.

Company designations on service papers:

Mark, I hadn't realised it was so uncommon for the company designation to be found on KRRC paperwork. My main interest is West Yorkshire Regiment men, and theirs seem to be more commonly entered. A regimental peculiarity perhaps?

Or maybe the clerks were feeling the pressure and any time saving corners that could be cut were cut?

I doubt there is a definitive answer.

Cheers,

Nigel

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Liz in Eastbourne

Mark

Thank you so much for putting me right with your customary speed and force.

This is the main function of useful idiots like me on the forum, I realise, to help find issues and get them clarified.

Just at the moment I won't pursue Trenholme's career further, because I am concentrating on gathering the original battalion as far as is possible. There is no doubt that he enlisted with the 21st battalion as I described, as I have found his attestation form. So I am not placing too much reliance on the numbering.

Thank you for all the time and trouble you took on William Pallister. I had correctly found that he was originally a 21st Bn recruit from not just his number, though that was a clue, but his attestation form. I think it would be fine to wait until later to fill all these details in. I myself am busy researching a completely different area - needless to say, not on the Great War or any military subject - for a book, so had better not get too bogged down.

Liz

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Liz in Eastbourne

Here is another man from the photograph.
Lance-Corporal Edward Hills Bamber - referred to simply as Hills Bamber on the CWGC and SDGW records, but Edward as a schoolboy in 1901.
Service no C/12017. Enlisted at Malton on 25th September 1915. Approved by Feversham at Helmsley 27 Sept.
On his attestation form he is shown as a farmer, 27 yrs 11 months old, unmarried, of Byland Abbey, Ampleforth. Though he was 'son of Mrs S Bamber of Stiillington, Easingwold, Yorks' by the time of his death (CWGC), he was born in Oswaldkirk where his father was innkeeper of the Malt Shovel Inn - neighbours of the Trenholmes mentioned yesterday.
(I noticed that especially because a few weeks ago I was looking out at that inn from my bedroom window, staying with a cousin!)
He died of wounds on 21 Sept 1916.

Liz

EDIT For photograph see here.

Edited by Liz in Eastbourne

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Liz in Eastbourne

Although I have not done any more work on Gordon Trenholme, and wasn't intending to for the time being, a piece of corroboratory evidence for Mark's second possible scenario for his career dropped through my letterbox this morning, in the shape of A Kitchener Man's Bit by Gerald V Dennis, ed. M Hickes, pub. 1994 by MERH books.

The ancillary notes say that Gordon Trenholme was one of the wounded at Ploegsteert Wood on 1st June 1916. I had noticed something happened to the Battalion that day even though they were not yet engaged in a full-scale battle; as mentioned before, I've done a preliminary check on CWGC and in some cases SDGW for the men ( 'A' company presumed, with all the caveats mentioned previously!) in the photograph referred to in that KRRC journal article about Dennis, and noticed JW Collier was killed or died on 1st June.

In general, Dennis explains what happened in much more precise detail than Eden (who acknowledges in his book Dennis's 'remarkable memory and personal records of the battalion's history') and this incident I can't even find in Another World - possibly because Eden was at this point giving an account of the news he'd just had of his 16-year-old brother's death in the Battle of Jutland. Both of them were in C Company, Eden as a very young officer (18 -19 in 1916), Dennis as a young rifleman (20).

G V Dennis writes:

Just after nine o'clock on the morning of Thursday, June 1st, we heard the sound of shellfire not very far away. A few shells of high explosive had burst above the wood and shrapnel rained down on 'A' Company, part of which was having a rifle inspection with Second Lieutenant P. Grahame (Pansy) in charge. As quickly as possible the men flung themselves down on the ground - no drill book had taught this movement, it had to be grasped when the time for it came. Sergeant Seward was one of those killed instantly and some men were wounded including Ernest Forster. Sergeant R. Seward, Rifleman J.W. Collier and Rifleman V.G. Hickes were buried in Riflehouse Cemetery in Plugstreet Wood.

By the way I thought Eden was unfortunate in being called 'Boy' by everyone - but I see now he was lucky compared with the next youngest officer, Grahame!

Liz

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Liz in Eastbourne

That's nothing! My grandfather lived in Tenbury Wells on the Herefordshire/Worcestershire/Shropshire border and enlisted in Winchester. He travelled there especially to make sure he got into the 60th.

The KRRC at the time was a highly-regarded elite regiment (likewise The Rifle Brigade) and people went to great lengths to enlist.

Re my wondering about Trenholme going to York, I did realise the KRRC was a highly-regarded regiment and that people went some distance to enlist. I just thought that as he was from very near Helmsley and the battalion was being raised in Helmsley, this would be the obvious place for him to enlist.

There's a nice bit in Dennis's book about the surprise inspection of the battalion by General Plumer soon after they arrived in France in May 1916:

The Companies were told to close up and make a compact gathering and the General came up and addressed them.

"Men of the 21st King's Royal Rifles, you have no reputation to make. Your Regiment has already done that. All you have to do is to maintain it."

Liz

..

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Perth Digger

The Germans were pretty active on that part of the front on 1 June. Further along the line, where 122nd Brigade of 41st Division were in the line, the 11/Royal West Kents lost 4 dead and 8 wounded (2 subsequently DOW). Apparently, a British balloon had got loose and everyone was watching to see what happened to the observers. The Germans fired rifle grenades into the trench and caused the casualtes (inexperience and excitement giving the Germans a good target). One of those killed was just 15 years of age.

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Liz in Eastbourne
On 9/10/2010 at 11:46, Perth Digger said:

The Germans were pretty active on that part of the front on 1 June. Further along the line, where 122nd Brigade of 41st Division were in the line, the 11/Royal West Kents lost 4 dead and 8 wounded (2 subsequently DOW). Apparently, a British balloon had got loose and everyone was watching to see what happened to the observers. The Germans fired rifle grenades into the trench and caused the casualtes (inexperience and excitement giving the Germans a good target). One of those killed was just 15 years of age.

Hello Perth Digger, and thanks for mentioning that sad story, because I am now trying to atone for past forgetfulness that there might have been earlier casualties by checking on the pre-Flers casualties of the 21st Bn - looked at the War Diary at Kew yesterday ( WO 95/2643; it's online in fact but I hadn't found it) and of course there were quite a few others on other dates too..

Just to confirm, after being wounded on 1 June and in UK for about 10 weeks, Stenholme was posted back to the 18th bn on 19 Sept, to the 12th on 28th Sept and killed on 7 Oct. Mea culpa. I hardly dare admit this but because I had never done this kind of research till I looked at Hardcastle (I'd looked at a few officers, that's all), and Mark found the main record for me in his case, it only dawned on me yesterday thanks to a kind soul at Kew that I was failing to look for the rest of the record behind the enlistment one - I am only admitting it now in case any other newbies may benefit. This has made life easier!

I have another June 1 casualty to mention but will post separately.

Liz

 

Edited by Liz in Eastbourne
Delete comment now irrelevant.

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Liz in Eastbourne

G V Dennis writes:

Just after nine o'clock on the morning of Thursday, June 1st, we heard the sound of shellfire not very far away. A few shells of high explosive had burst above the wood and shrapnel rained down on 'A' Company, part of which was having a rifle inspection with Second Lieutenant P. Grahame (Pansy) in charge. As quickly as possible the men flung themselves down on the ground - no drill book had taught this movement, it had to be grasped when the time for it came. Sergeant Seward was one of those killed instantly and some men were wounded including Ernest Forster. Sergeant R. Seward, Rifleman J.W. Collier and Rifleman V.G. Hickes were buried in Riflehouse Cemetery in Plugstreet Wood.

There is quite a bit of information about John William Collier, C/12966, beyond the CWGC record, but Ancestry have done their best to hide his military record. It is badly mistranscribed but I still don't understand why, when you have the options set to 'UK and Ireland' and the name at least is correct, all sorts of USA records and different names come up first. To save others the slog here's the link - John William Collier military record .

Or search on the full name and enlistment date without a place of residence, because it says

'Residence High Street?? , Regiment name ??Rd Rifles Man Rifles of Canada' and gives his number as 12966, without the C/ ,even though it's clear on the attestation form.

He was born in Helmsley - I'd noticed him first on the photograph of the Fevershams with 'A' company men from Helmsley and area, at Aldershot just before embarking for France, illustrating the KRRC journal article about Dennis to which I gave a link before. The note at the back of Dennis's book, written by Michael Hickes who edited A Kitchener Man's Bit for publication, says that Collier's

letter to his father, dated that morning, giving interesting detail of the conditions of YR men, has been deposited by his nephew, Johnny Collier, Pottergate, Helmsley, with the Liddle First War Archives, at The Brotherton Library, Leeds University.

There's a facsimile of part of it on the cover of the book - nice clear handwriting, to 'Dear Dad' from 'Somewhere in Belgium 1/6/16'.

In 1911 he was a postman living at home with his family in High Street, Helmsley, with his parents and six younger siblings aged 5-16. His father, William, is described as 'Gardener Labourer Domestic'. I've been interested in the number of these riflemen so far who are NOT farmers, but most of them belong to small communities in farming areas. In 1901 the Colliers had been at Sproxton, close by and like Helmsley itself on the edge of Duncombe Park, and his father seems then to have been a gardener in the grounds of Sproxton Hall, a large farm.

In 1915 Collier was described as a 'clerk' on his attestation form; other records show this was still in the post office. His attestation was at Helmsley on 17 November and Feversham approved on 19 Nov. His medical form confirms the supposition that he was in A company.

He was just very unlucky that he was in the wrong place on June 1.

Liz

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Perth Digger

Hi Liz

Using Geoff's search engine, I've found 32 21/KRRCs killed before 15 September 1916 and am going through their service records at the moment (where available). The figure may be 30, as two appear to have been attached to 1/Rifle Brigade once in France.

I'm collating all data I can get on-line for both 11/RWK and 21/KRRC for the whole of 1916, using census records etc too. When I've done, I'll try to make the stuff available to anyone interested. I seem to have got myself interested in the 41st Division almost without noticing! Many years ago I lived in York and went to school in Blackheath/Lewisham, so that perhaps these facts may explain it.

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