21st Battalion KRRC - the original Yeomen

[Perth Digger]

Hi Liz

Yes, thanks, the holiday was great, although we're all sitting around here in Perth at the moment in horribly hot and humid weather waiting to see if a cyclone will hit us tomorrow.

Funnily enough, I know St Johns Park in Blackheath. The houses were/are very large and Victorian, ideal for flats today I would think but also capable of accommodating many lodgers in the past. It abuts Blackheath itself (on the other side from the village) and runs parallel to an equally prestigious set of houses on Shooters Hill Rd. A good address.

[tharkin56]

This is the world war 2 Potter as mentioned, extract from Bablake School and the second World War

George Alwyn Potter died aged 30 on the 12th April 1941. A Fireman with the Auxiliary Fire Service he was injured whilst on duty on the 10th April 1941 at Meadow Street, Coventry and died two days later at Warwick Hospital. George belonged to the Gosford Green branch of the AFS and was injured outside the Council House by the detonation of a High Explosive (HE) bomb. His family were no strangers to acts of heroism, his father Major G. E. Potter, a resident of 186 Foleshill Road, Coventry had previously been awarded the Military Cross. His mother was Mrs F. A. Potter. George was married to Mrs M. V. Potter. Different sources show different addresses: the Commonwealth War Graves Commission show 64 Wyken Road, Coventry, and the 'City of Coventry; Roll of the Fallen' states the "Granges, Brixworth, Northamptonshire". George attended Bablake from 1922 to 1927 and is commemorated on a memorial to the firemen who fell in St. Mary's Guild Hall.

On his death his body was brought back from Warwick for burial at Coventry Cemetery although not in the Communal Grave. The December 1940 to July 1941 edition of 'The Wheatleyan' commented "We deplore the deaths of A. Hiscocks and G. A. Potter while fire watching".

[Chutist33]

Hi Liz and Nigel, Re: 7 Platoon photo. I have had the photograph converted onto a disc and it has transferred well. (Had to remove original from frame but unfortunately there was nothing written on the back!!). Let me know when you are ready for next stage and I will either e mail it to you or attach it - if it will fit! Best wishes, yours aye, Jim K

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Mike

I think the ' lodgers' in 1911 might also have been in furnished apartments rather than boarding-house rooms,as there were only three and no landlord/lady in evidence.

While these things are not directly relevant to the Great War, I am getting more and more interested in the social and geographical origins of the original Yeoman Riflemen, as they are by no means all as expected. It seemed in the beginning like a military reflection of a deeply traditional northern rural way of life. The men in Feversham's burial party were from that side of the story.

Rfn John Hardcastle was also part of that, as his family farmed partly their own land and partly on one of the big estates; he would have married my great-aunt if he had not died, and his two sisters both married brothers of my great-aunt, and I know from memory and family record that they were all part of this northern farming society. Feversham, Eden, the Burtons, all came from the landowning aristocratic or gentry side of it. But then there are so many men, officers and OR, who didn't.

tharkin 65

Thanks for the additional information on George Potter's son.

Jim

Great! If you don't manage to attach it I think I can do it if you e-mail it to me. I have now got my KRRC photos on Photobucket so you don't get the problems with the file size being too large.

I am getting a bit behind with everything so if I don't finish all the officers by next week let's go ahead and put your photo up anyway. I can leave Eden and Feversham out for the time being as they are constantly being mentioned anyway, and some of the other officers had only a short spell in the Yeoman Rifles as far as I can tell.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Temporary Second Lieutenant Richard Charles Spencer Baxter (later Staff Captain)

Wounded at Flers 15 September 1916

Richard Baxter is standing on the right (ie his left) of Monty Cole in the middle of the group photograph.

He was born in Southall, Middlesex in December 1889, son of Annie (born in Brixton) and Richard Wakeham Baxter (born in Southall).

His father was an Export Merchant on the census records of 1891 and 1901, and Estate Developer in 1911.

The house they lived in from before 1901, South Lodge, had ten rooms, but they never had more than one servant, so they did not live in the luxury of some officers' families. Richard's one surviving sister was living at home, aged 23, and there was a 'companion', aged 28, in 1911.

His MIC shows that he was a Private, then Corporal in the 1st Bn Rhodesia Regiment before being commissioned into the 15th and then the 21st Bn KRRC. He had served in South West Africa from 21 December 1914. His commission to the Yeoman Rifles is included in the large group announcement already quoted several times:

London Gazette 29474 of 11th February 1916, Supp. 14th Feb. p. 1669

The King's Royal Rifle Corps.

…

The undermentioned temporary Second

Lieutenants, from a Reserve Battalion, to

be temporary Second Lieutenants. Dated

2nd February, 1916, but with seniority

from the dates specified against their

names: —

…

Richard C. S. Baxter. 1st October, 1915.

I do not know which was Baxter's company or what his role in the battalion was. He is not mentioned by Eden or Dennis. He was clearly competent as he was promoted to Lieutenant from the time of the battalion's embarkation for France.

London Gazette 29641 of 27 June 1916

K. R. Rif. C.

…

The undermentioned temp. 2nd Lts. to be

temp. Lts.: —

R. C. S. Baxter. 5 May 1916.

He was wounded at Flers (War Diary and War record) and like so many other officers and other ranks, appears not to have been sent back to the Yeoman Rifles, but to another KRRC Battalion.

London Gazette 30134 of 15 June 1917

K. R. Rif. C.

The undermentioned temp. Lts., from

Serv. Bns., to be temp. Lts. (attd.), retaining their present seniority: —

R. C. S. Baxter. 11 Mar. 1917.

…

London Gazette 31399 of 10 June 1919

Staff Capts.—And relinquish the temp. rank

of Capt. : —

…

Temp. Lt. R. C. S. Baxter, Serv. Bn.,

K.R. Rif. C. 16th Apr. 1919.

The Times Digital Archive yields a few details of his later life: he attended several Service Dinners at Chatham Garrison during the 1930s; his wife, Georgina, predeceased him, and his daughter, Dr Barbara Baxter, became engaged to Mr AL Watters in 1966. RCS Baxter died in London in 1966.

Edited 12 August , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne
Re-insert photo

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Temporary Second Lieutenant William Alan Jeune Willans

(18th Bn KRRC; later Captain; killed in action 24 March 1918)

William A.J. Willans is standing behind Major Foljambe in the group photograph. His MIC mentions only the 18th Bn KRRC and his departure for France as 2nd October 1916. For whatever reason, then, he did not stay with the Yeoman Rifles beyond May 1916 when they embarked for France.

The CWGC information states that he was 21 when he was killed in action in March 1918, and was the son of Mrs Willans of Maidstone, Kent and the late Dr William Blundell Willans of Much Hadham, Herts. His birth was registered in Bishop's Stortford, Herts, in the second quarter of 1896. I have not found him in the census records for 1901 or 1911. His father was according to the 1881 census born in the Straits Settlements and his mother in India, so the family may have returned there.

He was part of the large group of officers from 'a reserve battalion' (this seems always to be the 15th Bn, where stated in the records) appointed to the 21st Bn KRRC in early February 1916.

London Gazette 29474 of 11th February 1916, Supp. 14th Feb. p. 1669

The King's Royal Rifle Corps.

…

The undermentioned temporary Second

Lieutenants, from a Reserve Battalion, to

be temporary Second Lieutenants. Dated

2nd February, 1916, but with seniority

from the dates specified against their

names: —

…

William A. J. Willans. 22nd July, 1915.

Further details of his career are probably not relevant to this thread, which (to remind myself) is about the men of 21/KRRC Oct 1915 – Oct 1916.

Just a note:

GV Dennis should have gone to the 18th Bn when the 21st was disbanded in March 1918, but was saved by the doctor, who said he should never have been at the front in the first place. He wrote:

'…I had been transferred to our 18th KRR battalion, in the same division but in the 122 Brigade. It had gone into action on March 21st against the German push and had almost been wiped out, only twenty-two men surviving. What luck for me to have been unfit.'

Edited 12 August , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne
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[Liz in Eastbourne]

Temporary Captain Philip Lloyd-Greame (sometimes spelt Lloyd-Graeme)

MC in 1916; later Major; MP, KBE, CH, PC; known as Cunliffe-Lister from 1924, The Viscount Swinton 1935-55, then 1st Earl of Swinton

Sitting between Major Foljambe and Captain Honey in the front row on the group photograph.

The variation of spelling in Philip Lloyd-Greame's name causes confusion even though we are dealing with the period of his life before he changed his name completely. In the London Gazette it is most often 'Graeme', which is the spelling used on the caption supplied by the RGJ Museum, but the documents in the National Archives all spell it 'Greame', which I think must be correct (but am open to further information to the contrary! EDIT My latest idea about this is that the family name was historically spelt 'Greame' but he, personally, preferred to spell it 'Graeme'. There's a relative always spelt 'Greame' in Gazette entries. Since Philip changed his name completely to enable him to inherit from a relative of his wife's in 1924, he doesn't seem to have minded much about the history of his name.)

He was born in May 1884 in Ayton, Yorkshire. His father was Lt-Colonel Yarbrugh George Lloyd-Greame and his mother Dora Letitia O'Brien, the daughter of a Church of Ireland Bishop; they lived at Sewerby Hall, Bridlington (not far from Cherry Burton, where Claud Burton grew up). We are now back with a member of the Yorkshire landed gentry.

He went to Winchester and Oxford, where he read law. He was commissioned soon after the start of the war into the Territorial Force, and was rapidly promoted:

London Gazette 29272 of 20th Aug 1915 Supp. 23rd August

5th Battalion, Alexandra, Princess of Wales's Own (Yorkshire Regiment).

Captain Philip Lloyd-Graeme to be temporary Major. Dated 12th July, 1915

He was transferred to the KRRC early in the 21st Battalion's life:

LG 29326 12 Oct 1915 Supp

The King's Royal Rifle Corps.

…

Temporary Major Philip Lloyd-Graeme,

from Alexandra, Princess of Wales's Own

(Yorkshire Regiment) (Territorial Force),

to be temporary Captain. Dated 5th October, 1915.

GV Dennis recalled in A Kitchener Man's Bit:

'Almost all the junior officers who joined us at Helmsley were from the northern counties: P. Lloyd-Graeme of Sewerby near Bridlington, R P Graham, A Howard of Sheffield and E Worsley of Hovingham were in 'A' Coy'…'

Lloyd-Greame was not such a junior officer as the much younger men, of course, and I am guessing he was in command of A Coy.

He survived the first Somme battle, Flers – I thought perhaps he had been kept out of it, as we know the Company Commanders of C (Pitt) and D (Coates) were wounded and I understand two of the four would have been kept back. But he won the MC for his service in 1916 (LG 29886 of 29th Dec, 3rd Supp., 1st Jan 1917), and I do not know exactly what this was for.

He was promoted again to enable him to fulfil the role of Brigade Major:

LG 29809 31 Oct 1916 Supp 1 Nov 1916

K. R. Rif. C.

Temp. Capt. P. Lloyd-Graeme to be temp.

Maj. 16 Sept. 1916.

…

LG 29811 31 Oct 1916 Supp 2 Nov 1916

Brig. Majors.—

…

Temp. Capt. P. Lloyd-Graeme, K.R. Rif.C., and to be transfd. to Gen. List, vice

Maj. E. B. North, R. Fus. 27th Sept. 1916

LG 29929 of 2 Feb 1917 Supp 5 Feb

Brig.-Majors.—

…

Temp. Maj. P. Lloyd-Graeme, Gen. List,

vice Capt. W. Gibson, Res. of Off. 25th

Jan. 1917

This of course meant that he left the Yeoman Rifles at some point in about September 1916: – I don't know if the date means he actually left after Flers and before Gird Ridge; given their losses and the imminent action, that would seem surprising.  EDIT Given that there's no mention of him at Flers by anyone, and Meysey-Thompson says he was 'lent to Worsley'  on 1 August, as A Coy was short of officers, I now think he left in July, and Worsley, previously 2-in-C, took over.

He was later MP for Hendon (1918 - 1935) and held a number of government posts, including President of the Board of Trade, Secretary of State for the Colonies and, after he entered the Lords, Minister of Civil Aviation. There's a fairly full Wikipedia entry on his political career, under the heading Philip Cunliffe-Lister, 1st Earl of Swinton. Like many of those who went through WW1, he and his wife lost a son killed in action in WW2.

Edited 21 August , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne
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[Perth Digger]

Liz

As you've probably seen, there is no 21/KRRC War Diary for November 1916, when he could have left, and in general the Diary does not seem to be very particular about recording the comings and goings of officers at this time.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Liz

As you've probably seen, there is no 21/KRRC War Diary for November 1916, when he could have left, and in general the Diary does not seem to be very particular about recording the comings and goings of officers at this time.

Hi Mike

Yes, we had much tearing of hair about the inadequacies of the WD earlier on in this thread - on page 5. I even went and pestered them at Kew, convinced that they must have the seven appendices for October which are listed alongside the inadequate main text but not digitised. They let me search through the box - but nothing was there that had not been digitised. How could someone have thrown them away? Aargh.

This was, of course, when the battalion was in tatters and poor young Anthony Eden was struggling with the duties of adjutant. That's why I thought surely they would not have taken away a fairly experienced officer with Gird Ridge in the offing? I've never quite understood the dates of LG entries - e.g. whether the date given for this transfer is just a sort of backdating for administrative tidiness and in fact Lloyd-Graeme/Greame didn't leave the Yeoman Rifles till after Gird ridge. That would make most sense.

Eden says re Oct 8th 'our battalion, now very weak in numbers, and especially in officers and senior NCOs, was drawn back into the Gird trench and Gird support.' B and D Coys took the main strain at Gird Ridge.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Temporary Major Rowland Edward Paget

Wounded at Flers with 18th Bn (?) KRRC, 15 September 1916 (later given hon. rank of Major)

Sitting on the right of 'Patch' Watson (i.e. on Watson's left) in the front of the group photograph, with 2/Lt GJL Burton on the ground at his feet.

Although Paget was not able to go to France with the Yeoman Rifles as a result of an injury, he was with them during the training at Aldershot and reappears in their story when, badly wounded at Flers serving with another KRRC battalion, he was picked up and brought in by Yeoman Riflemen.

Rowland Edward Paget was born in Staffordshire in December 1878, the son of Lord Berkeley Charles Sydney Paget and Florence Lady Berkeley Paget (née Chetwynd). His paternal grandfather was the Marquess of Anglesey. I don't know which school he went to. He does not appear to have gone to Sandhurst.

He was commissioned into the Royal Sussex Regiment before 1899 (LG 27142 of 8 December 1899), and served in the second Boer War and later in India before resigning his commission in 1909 (LG28297 of 15 October 1909).

He emigrated the following year to British Columbia, where he lived in a small fruit-growing community called Walhachin and married a Canadian, Maude Cran. There's a picture of the place on this thread Walhachin British Columbia.

There is an interesting account of his work in 1911 –1914 with the cavalry militia, the 31st British Columbia Horse, and his transfer in 1914 to the Lord Strathcona's Horse, in Keith Wood's paper A Walhachin Index in the Journal of British Columbia Vol 33 no 2 of Spring 2000, online

http://www.library.ubc.ca/archives/pdfs/bchf/bchn_2000_spring.pdf

 

. This regiment went into the line as infantry, despite its name (switching back to cavalry later).

Captain Paget then transferred to the KRRC, and was appointed to the Yeoman Rifles – a battalion which also sounded like cavalry but was infantry.

LG 29397 7 Dec 1915 Supp 9 Dec 1915

The King's Royal Rifle Corps.

Lieutenant Rowland Paget, from Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians), to

be temporary Captain. Dated 17th November, 1915, but not to carry pay or allowances prior to 22nd November, 1915.

LG 29459 of Feb 1 1916 Supp 2 Feb

The King's Royal Rifle Corps.

…

Temporary Captain Rowland Paget to be temporary Major.

Dated 17th January,

1916.

LG 29567 of 2 May 1916 Supp 4 May 1916

K. R. Rif. C.

Temp. Maj. R. Paget, from a Serv. Bn., to be temp. Maj. 20 Apr. 1916, but with

seniority from 17 Jan. 1916.

As previously mentioned, Dennis thought he was in command of D Company in France, but Eden's evidence is to be preferred here, as he knew him well. He writes of the aftermath of the attack on 15th September 1916:

'As I was leaving the CCS an orderly came up to me and said that an officer had seen me pass his tent door and would like to have a word with me. He was very weak and in a tent for gassed cases so would I please make it short.

I approached and to my surprise found that the wounded man had been our junior major in Aldershot days, when he had sprained his ankle badly. Some careless orderly had applied the wrong ointment, blistering the skin, so that he could not walk for weeks. As a result he had been unable to sail with us but had come out some time later to join another battalion of our regiment.

With one leg smashed and the other wounded, and gassed as well, he had lain for hours in no-man's-land, given up for dead, when some of our riflemen had happened upon him and had brought him in. Rowley Paget looked desperately ill, but he recovered and was my neighbour in Sussex in the Second World War.'

Another World

, p 100

I don't know what the statement that he was 'our junior major' means in relation to his function in the battalion – is it incompatible with the assumption that, as Dennis says, he was in command of D Company in the beginning (though not in France)? Then it seems GL Burton took over from Paget before they left for France, Coates after Burton was burned in the phosphorus incident and Sheardown after Coates was wounded at Flers.

Would Paget have been with the 18th Battalion at Flers?

He had a leg amputated, and his recovery took time.

LG 30682 of 10 May Supp 14 May 1918

K.R. Rif. C.

Temp. Maj. R. Paget relinquishes his commission on account of ill-health caused

by wounds and is granted the hon. rank of Maj.

15 May 1918.

Rowland Paget and his wife returned to Walhachin after the war, but eventually came back to live in Sussex, as Eden mentions. Their only son, Lt. William Edward Sydney Paget of the Royal Sussex Regiment, was killed in action in Eritrea in 1941 and buried at Asmara (CWGC). Major Paget died in Lavant, Chichester in February 1956 and his widow in 1975.

There was no Times obituary for him, but I would guess that the Chichester newspaper carried one which might offer more detail of his life. The West Sussex Record Office there has his photographs of South Africa 1901 - 2 and papers on India 1907-9.

Edited 12 August , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne
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[Liz in Eastbourne]

Here's another aristocratic young officer: standing in front of Eden in the group photo.

Temporary Second Lieutenant Richard Preston Graham (later Lieutenant, MC, and MVO) Name changed to Graham-Vivian in 1929.

Wounded – where? Ploegsteert Wood? – in 1916

Richard Preston Graham was, like Anthony Eden, straight from Eton in 1915, and was even more closely connected to Lt-Col. Charles Duncombe, Earl of Feversham, the CO of the battalion – they were first cousins. His mother was, before her marriage to Sir Richard James Graham, 4th Baronet, (Mabel) Cynthia Duncombe, the sister of Charles Duncombe's father. Even more complicated, the mother of both Cynthia and Charles Duncombe's father was Mabel Violet Graham; Cynthia had married her first cousin, so young Richard was doubly related to his CO. (Are you still with me? I'm not sure if I am, myself.)

Richard was born in London in August 1896. He had an elder brother, Frederick Fergus, and a sister, Daphne, and the family lived in both London and Cumberland, where the family seat was Netherby Hall, Arthuret, Longtown.

Netherby Hall is in the border country, north of Carlisle, and had belonged to the Grahams for generations. It featured in Sir Walter Scott's Lochinvar. In 1901, Sir Richard and his brother were there with eleven servants, a groom and a gamekeeper in the big house and numerous other estate workers in other houses.

His wife and the children might have been in their London house, but I cannot find them. In 1911, Sir Richard and Lady Cynthia, Fergus and Daphne were at 32, Bryanston Square, Marylebone W.,London, with a French governess and nine servants, while young Richard was at Eton and Netherby Hall was occupied by eleven servants.

There are many websites about Netherby Hall and the Grahams; I gather they, like the Fevershams, had to sell off some of the estate before WW1. Richard Graham-Vivian also has a Wikipedia entry, very useful in general, but with no details about his service with the Yeoman Rifles, calling him 'an officer in the King's Royal Rifle Corps'.

I have found it much more difficult to work out Richard Graham's military career than the aristocratic background from which he came. He was appointed early on:

LG 29426 31 Dec 1915

The King's Royal Rifle Corps.

The appointments and transfers of the

undermentioned temporary Second Lieutenants, notified in previous Gazettes, are

antedated to the 29th September, 1915, but

not to carry pay or allowances prior to the

dates specified against their names: —

…

Robert A. Eden. 2nd November, 1915.

Richard Preston Graham to be temporary

Second Lieutenant. Dated 29th September, 1915, with precedence next below H. T.Turner. (Substituted for the notification

which appeared in the Gazette of 14th October, 1915.)

Then we know from Dennis's anecdotes, previously mentioned, that he was known as Pansy while Eden was known as The Boy. (Dennis gives a ludicrously innocent account of how these nicknames were bestowed; he assures us that they were affectionate, anyway.) Dennis thought they were the two youngest officers, but as has been seen, Coates was a few months younger, though already a seasoned soldier. Graham was in A Company and Dennis's second and last mention of him is of the incident on 1 June at Ploegsteert Wood:

'Just after nine o'clock on the morning of Thursday, June 1st, we heard the sound of shellfire not very far away. A few shells of high explosive had burst above the wood and shrapnel rained down on 'A' Company, part of which was having a rifle inspection with Second Lieutenant P. Graham (Pansy) in charge.'

I quoted this on page 2 in connection with the riflemen killed and injured. Dennis doesn't mention what happened to Graham, but it could be that he was wounded and absent from the two Somme battles of the Yeoman Rifles. He is on the 21st Bn casualty list for 1916, but is not mentioned in the War Diary as wounded after Flers, nor after Gird Ridge.

EDIT But Lt Meysey-Thompson's diary says he had a'wonderful escape' on 1 June.

As we have found before, however, the WD record after Gird Ridge is completely inadequate, and the appendices listed are now missing. I haven't got the June WD and am too mean to buy it online – has anyone else? If not I will check at Kew some time. EDIT Perth Digger has kindly checked the digital version and there is no mention in June either. This does not of course prove he wasn't wounded, as we know the WD is not as full as it might be at any date.

So it is not clear yet whether he remained with the 21st battalion or was wounded early and later returned to another KRRC battalion.

EDIT Meysey-Thompson's diary mentions him as wounded at Gird Ridge on 7 October, so that clears that up.

EDIT An update on the last sentence: the 1916 KRRC Chronicle states that he went from 21st to 7th Battalion KRRC in March 1918, when the Yeoman Rifles were disbanded. 

He finished the war still in the KRRC:

LG 32485 of 11 October 1921, Supplement 12 October 1921

K.R.R.C.

Temp. Lt. R. P. Graham, M.C., relinquishes his commission on completion of service, 17 Jan. 1919, and retains the rank of Lt.

In between these two Gazette entries, I have found nothing. I wasted a lot of time looking at entries for a 2/Lt or Lt R. P. Graham in the Cameron Highlanders, and one in the Highland Light Infantry, but on searching the MICs for R P Graham again, I find the first is Reginald and the second is a New Zealander called Richard Pattinson Graham.

Richard Preston Graham appears to have only one MIC referring only to the KRRC. If no one else knows anything about him, this is another case where the military record is needed.

His brother, Frederick Fergus Graham (later 5th Baronet), was first in the Irish Guards and finished the war as a Major in the 4th Border Regiment.

After the war, he married Audrey Emily Vivian in December 1921 and by Royal Licence assumed the name Graham-Vivian in 1929. They had a son and a daughter. He joined the staff of the College of Arms and had a series of jobs with strange heraldic titles, Bluemantle Pursuivant , Windsor Herald and Norroy and Ulster King of Arms.

A Times article of 29 March 1933 calls him 'late the King's Royal Rifle Corps', and says he 'served in the War from 1915 to 1918, being twice wounded and a prisoner of war.' So there is certainly more to find out about his wartime service. He returned to the army in WW2 (LG 35243, 1941)

He died in Horsham in 1979.

Edited 22 August , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne
Re-insert photo, add info from Meysey-Thompson.

[David_Underdown]

With regard to Lloyd-Graeme, have you established in which brigade he was BM? The Brigade HQ war diary may show when he joined.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

David

No, I haven't established this. I'm afraid there are many loose ends hanging off this thread, and I haven't had time yet to follow them all up. I've been living in hope that other people would be able to contribute the missing information.

You're better than I am with the London Gazette, and other searches - I suppose you wouldn't accept the challenge of the next one?

Temporary Lieutenant C F Thorpe – a mystery

I have to appeal for help here – because if this man did not appear in the group photograph, as he does in the middle row next to Graham, with Eden behind them, and with the caption identifying him as above, I would be wondering if GV Dennis had made up the stories in A Kitchener Man's Bit.

He says C.Thorpe of Alnwick was one of the junior officers at Helmsley, and was in C Company.(p 11).

'Thorpe was typical Northumbrian in dialect, quite a burr. Some of his words amused us at first because he could not sound the letter 'r', which appeared to sound like a 'w'.' (p 14)

'When lining up we of 'C' Company would be instructed to "Leave plenty of woom in your 'w'anks for your wifles", as our Northumbrian officer put it.'(p 19)

He is not in the casualty list for 1916, and he appears to have survived the war. Because Ancestry is so unhelpful with initials, I've searched on Charles, Cecil, Cyril, Colin, Christopher and even Cuthbert (after all, St Cuthbert was a Northumbrian). No good. There is a CF Thorpe in the phone books later, and there are other C. Thorpes but I can't find a MIC that fits the bill.

Since he is already a Lieutenant, I assume he came from another battalion, or possibly another regiment. He looks a bit older and has an excellent moustache. I have gone through the entries for Thorpe without any initials in the London Gazette, to no avail.

There is a solicitor's family in Alnwick in the 1901 census recorded as Thorpe that I thought might be his: Thomas A[lder] and Elizabeth J[ane]. But the eldest child is Thomas T, born c 1898, so I think they are really Thorp, a family of solicitors in Alnwick for centuries, whose son Second Lieutenant Thomas Tudor Thorp was killed in action in 1917 and is commemorated on the Alnwick War Memorial. The 'Northumbrian dialect' sounds more like a farmer than a solicitor or one of the Etonian sons of the big landowners.

It would be a great relief if someone else could identify this man, as I can't.

Liz

Edited 12 August , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne
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[David_Underdown]

It would appear that he is indeed Thorp rather than Thorpe. Unfortunately, WO 338/19 (which can be freely downloaded from http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7960626, though it's big) only shows him as C F, as does the description of his actual file in WO 339/12499. The index entry suggests he was initially commissioned in the Special Reserve, Northumberland Fusiliers (the entry is annotated 3/5 - Northumberland Fusiliers were originally 5th Regiment of Foot, 3rd battalion was the Special Reserve; and 21/60, KRRC trace their origins to the 60th Foot, Royal Americans), which fits his origins as described. So I'd guess that the MIC http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=5766192, Collingwood Forster Thorp, Lieutenant KRRC, Captain KRRC is your man. Examining the MIC in detail, he is shown as 21/KRRC, and unusually for a date after 1915 his date of entry is given, 4 May 1916.

Searching the Gazette again is left as an exercise for the reader

[David_Underdown]

I've also been able to look at he record of war services of solicitors and articled clerks, 1914-18". Listed is Collingwood Forster Thorp, admitted October 1904, member of Dickson, Archer and Thorp, Alnwick - which all looks good, though it only mentions service with 15th northumberlad Fusiliers. I'd imagine that in 1901 he would have been at school or university, hence his absence from the census.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

On 2/21/2011 at 16:36, David Underdown said:

I've also been able to look at he record of war services of solicitors and articled clerks, 1914-18". Listed is Collingwood Forster Thorp, admitted October 1904, member of Dickson, Archer and Thorp, Alnwick - which all looks good, though it only mentions service with 15th northumberlad Fusiliers. I'd imagine that in 1901 he would have been at school or university, hence his absence from the census.

David - thank you! this is brilliant. I am so grateful to you for breaking into this one.

Yes, that is the firm of solicitors I referred to but couldn't previously connect him to, being convinced that he was a Thorpe because both Dennis and the RGJ museum photo caption spelled it like that.

I saw your first message and rushed off to do a little rummaging on Ancestry etc before posting, and it's like having the key to a whole new cupboard of info. It does surprise me none of this came up on all my previous searches, given that his much older brother Thomas Alder Thorp (the solicitor I mentioned) and son Thomas Tudor Thorp who was killed in action did come up - but I should have pushed harder at that family, remembering the Sherlock Holmes maxim that ' when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth', especially as it wasn't even improbable.

I am finding a whole lot more now and will shortly post the results. My first thought on seeing the census records was that given that the first three sons were called Thomas, William and Robert it was a bit unfair of the parents to call the fourth one Collingwood! But they all have exotic middle names. He was a Cambridge undergraduate in 1901, though at home for the census.

Re the MIC: I've never really fathomed the difference between what you can get from the NA and from Ancestry. As I have an Ancestry subscription I use that if possible. I have now found the MIC for him with his full name and 21 KRRC service, but not the other one. But I haven't yet done the LG search you so kindly commended to 'the reader'! I'll go away and see what I can do and come back with an account and any queries still left over.

Thanks again, this is very cheering.

Liz

Edited 12 August , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne
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[David_Underdown]

I'd imagine Collingwood is named after the admiral, Nelson's 2ic at Trafalgar - so you were on the right lines going for Cuthbert as a name with Northumbrian associations, in fact even more so than I had remembered as it was only just now when I doublechecked that the admiral was a Geordie, that I was reminded that his first name was ... Cuthbert!

[David_Underdown]

Incidentally, I only found one MIC too, the other link is to the download for WO 338/19.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I'd imagine Collingwood is named after the admiral, Nelson's 2ic at Trafalgar - so you were on the right lines going for Cuthbert as a name with Northumbrian associations, in fact even more so than I had remembered as it was only just now when I doublechecked that the admiral was a Geordie, that I was reminded that his first name was ... Cuthbert!

That's a very good point! I thought it might be a family name but on a brief search haven't found it so it might just be a tribute.

The word 'exotic' I used for the other family members' middle names was not really appropriate – they are just odd to modern ears, but are family names (to judge from a quick look at family trees online).

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Temporary Lieutenant Collingwood Forster Thorp

Thanks to David's identification I am now able to add an outline biography of this officer to the photo and anecdotes from Dennis I gave previously.

Collingwood Thorp was born in January 1879, son of the Rev. William Tudor Thorp, described as 'clergyman Church of England without cure of souls' in all the census records from 1871 to 1911, and his second wife Mary Louise. William's father, Collingwood's grandfather, was an Alnwick attorney in the already long-established family firm of solicitors, which was known at this time and until it closed in 2003 (after Collingwood's nephew's death), as Dickson, Archer and Thorp. (Googling finds an article by Tony Henderson on http://www.the/freelibrary.com about the firm and the office's Dickensian contents.)

He had an elder half-brother, Thomas Alder Thorp (1866-1945), and elder brothers William Tudor Sayce (1877 –1973) and Robert Oakley Vavasour Thorp (1876 –1918), as well as three younger siblings, Harold Tragett (1883-?), Reginald Pearce (1887 –1980) and Beatrice Jane Fenwick Thorp (1881 -?). It was Thomas's family I had previously noticed, and their son Thomas Tudor Thorp, 2nd Lt. 83rd Brigade RFA, killed in action in Flanders on 16 August 1917 (CWGC and commemorated on the Alnwick War Memorial and website).

Collingwood was at home with his family at Charlton Hall, Northumberland in spring 1881,1891 and 1901, according to the census records. He was a Cambridge undergraduate in 1901. The Times of Dec 19 1899 records him in the fourth class of ordinary BA graduates, but perhaps he stayed on to pursue legal studies. By 1911 he was a solicitor living alone in Allison Place, Alnwick.

He presumably obtained a commission in The Northumberland Fusiliers early in the war as he was promoted quickly:

LG 29053 of 26 Jan 1915 Supp of 29 Jan

INFANTRY.

Service Battalions.

The Northumberland Fusiliers.

15th Battalion—

Collingwood Forster Thorp to be temporary Lieutenant. Dated 13th November,

1914.

He was then briefly transferred to the East Yorkshire Regiment before moving to the Yeoman Rifles:

LG 29377 of 23 Nov 1915

Garrison Battalions.

The East Yorkshire Regiment.

…

Temporary Lieutenant Collingwood F.Thorp, from The Northumberland Fusiliers, to be temporary Lieutenant. Dated 2nd October, 1915, but with seniority from 13th November, 1914.

LG 29443 of 18 Jan 1916 Supp of 19 Jan p 818

The King's Royal Rifle Corps.

…

Temporary Lieutenant Collingwood F.Thorp, from 1st Garrison Battalion, The

East Yorkshire Regiment, to be temporary Lieutenant. Dated 10th January, 1916.

His MIC shows that Lt Thorp went to France on 4 May with the Yeoman Rifles and as far as we know he was with them throughout their first year, but was not wounded. This suggests he was kept out of the battle on 15 Sept 1916 as well as Eden, also in C Company – though as Eden says there were two officers not wounded (one was Darkie Cole,a s previously discussed), we cannot be sure. The casualties of C Company, where he probably still was, were not as severe as those of B and D Companies at Gird Ridge.

He then appears to have moved into a training role: I know nothing about the divisional training schools, so I don't know what this implies.

LG 29891 2 Jan 1917 Supp of 4 Jan

.

K.R. Rif. C.

Temp. Lt. C. F. Thorp to be temp. Capt. whilst holding the appt. of Asst. Comdt., Divl. Sch. 19 Nov. 1916.

LG 30 416 of 4 Dec 1917

K.R. Rif. C.

…

Temp. Lt. C. F. Thorp relinquishes the Temp. rank of Capt. on ceasing to be specially empld. 15 Apr. 1917.

His MIC shows he was with the 51st Battalion after the 21st and ended with the rank of Captain. I think this means that he spent the rest of the war in England. Depending on what the Divisional School was, he may have been at home throughout 1917 as well.

From The Long, Long Trail (on the KRRC)

'51st (Graduated) Battalion

Up to 27 October 1917, this was known as 284th Graduated Battalion and had no regimental affiliation. Before that it had been 17th Battalion of the Training Reserve and up to September 1916 had been the 11th (Reserve) Battalion of the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment. A training unit based at Canterbury, it was part of 202nd Brigade in 67th Division. Moved to Margate in January 1918 and was at Colchester from about March.'

By the end of the war the Thorps had suffered another loss: Collingwood's elder brother Robert had been killed in the war as a 39-year-old 2nd Lieutenant in the Northumberland Fusiliers (CWGC says 1st Bn, SDGW 3rd Bn) attached to the 64th Trench Mortar Battery: he had won the Military Cross in 1916 and was killed on 22 March 1918. He had been a schoolteacher in Scarborough, married with at least one child (1911 census).

Collingwood Forster Thorp married in the third quarter of 1918, and when the war ended was able to return to the family law firm. He was senior partner in Dickson, Archer and Thorp at he time of his death in 1955. He was secretary and treasurer of an association formed to protect bird life on the Farne Islands (Times Dec 31 1923) and his wife worked for the Northumberland Federation of Women's Institutes (Times 1 June 1935). He sounds a gentle person, whose Cambridge and wartime experiences seem to have been the only interruptions to a life spent with his family in Alnwick.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Temporary Second Lieutenant Cecil Frederick Joseph Liddell

(later Captain; MC; later head of MI5 in Ireland)

(middle row, third from right in the group photo)

Cecil Liddell is also a bit of a mystery though in a different way; he appears to have spent that 'original Yeomen' year of 1916 with the 21/KRRC but I have little detail on his Yeoman Rifles career. He came from a most interesting family, not just well-off, well-connected socially and also distinguished in battle, but deeply involved in the arts and espionage. To quote the publisher's blurb for Nigel West's edition of The Liddell Diaries, of Cecil's younger and more eminent brother, Guy, Cecil Liddell 'was one of three brothers who all won the Military Cross during World War 1 and subsequently joined MI5'

(Routledge 2005; also online).

The three brothers were born close together, Cecil Frederick Joseph in May 1890, David Edward in August 1891 and Guy Maynard in November 1892, to Captain Augustus Frederick Liddell, stockbroker, late of the Royal Artillery, and Emily (nee Shinner), well-known violinist and founder of an all-female string quartet.

Captain Augustus F Liddell was a grandson of the 1st Baron Ravensworth, of Ravensworth Castle, County Durham, and Eslington Park, Northumberland (The Peerage website). He was a member of the Honourable Company of Gentlemen at Arms (Times 18 May 1909) and appeared from time to time in royal guest lists in The Times.

Mrs Liddell was known professionally by her own name of Emily Shinner, and founded the Shinner Quartet in about 1888. Throughout the boys' early childhood she was playing at the Prince's Hall, the Queen's Hall and for the royal family at Osborne and elsewhere (Times Digital Archive). Cecil, at ten months old, was staying with his Shinner grandparents at the time of the 1891 census, and was at boarding school in Stanmore with David in 1901.

In July 1901, when she was 38 and Cecil, David and Guy were 11, nearly 10 and 8, she died giving birth to another son, still-born. (Times birth announcement 18 July 1901). The Times gave her a substantial obituary (20 July 1901), from which these are extracts:

'The death of Mrs A.F. Liddell (Miss Emily Shinner) on the 17th inst. removes from the musical world one of the most distinguished of the English pupils of Joachim. Born at Cheltenham in 1862, she studied at the Hochschule of Berlin until 1882, when she made her first appearance in London …

Her first appearance at the Crystal Palace was in March, 1884, when she undertook Spohr's seventh concerto, playing it with great success; since that year her place among violinists of distinction was assured…'

She had evidently performed less and less as a soloist in her last few years because of nerves, but was leader of the Charles Williams Orchestra.

The youngest son, Guy, inherited her musical gift and was in Germany studying the cello until just before war was declared.

Cecil meanwhile was reading for the Bar as a student of the Middle Temple, passing his Finals near the top of the second class in April 1914. David, according to his Charterhouse entry, was a forestry student.

I haven't found Cecil's MIC or the date of his commission (Guy on the other hand has five MICs, including one stating he was in Intelligence at the end of the war) but he was certainly in the Alexandra, Princess of Wales's Own (Yorkshire Regiment), from July 1915, and then transferred to 21/KRRC. He is not mentioned by Eden or Dennis either, unfortunately, but I have found no LG entry after the next one until the end of 1916.

London Gazette 29474 of 11th February 1916, Supp. 14th Feb. p. 1669

The King's Royal Rifle Corps.

The undermentioned temporary Second Lieutenants, from a Reserve Battalion, to be temporary Second Lieutenants.

Dated 2nd February, 1916, but with seniority from the dates specified against their names: —

….

Temporary Second Lieutenant Cecil F. J. Liddell,

from Alexandra, Princess of Wales's Own (Yorkshire Regiment),

to be temporary Second Lieutenant.

Dated 2nd February, 1916, but with seniority from 22nd July, 1915.

Their father at this time was appointed to serve a royal couple still sounding remarkably Germanic for the times:

LG 29287 of 7 Sept 1915

Cumberland Lodge,

7th September, 1915.

'The Prince and Princess Christian of Schleswig-Holstein have been pleased to

appoint Captain Augustus Frederick Liddell to be Comptroller of Their Royal Highnesses' Household, in the room of Major Evan Martin, C.V.O., resigned.'

Cecil was moved to command a Trench Mortar Battery at the end of 1916, and presumably as a result of his actions during this period, received the Belgian Croix de Guerre and was made Chevalier of the Ordre de la Couronne in April 1918. I don't know what this signifies – gallantry or general good service. I also don't know whether the wording of the notices suggests that the Trench Mortar Battery was within the same division as 21/KRRC: he remained with the KRRC to the end of the war. The battalion was involved in successful actions in 1917 at Messines Ridge in June, and at ? Ridge Wood (I am not sure of the title of this action) 20th-22nd September. I haven't found his MC; it is not mentioned until the 1919 entry so was perhaps awarded late in the war.

London Gazette 30134 of 15 June 1917

Third Supplement

SPECIAL RESERVE OF OFFICERS

Supplementary to Regular Units or Corps

The undermentioned temp. 2nd Lts. to be

acting Capts. whilst comdg. Trench Mortar

Batts.: —

C. F. J. Liddell, K.R. Rif. C. 8th Dec.1916.

…

London Gazette 30631 of 12 April 1918, Fourth Supplement 15th April

War Office,

15th April, 1918.

The following are among the Decorations and medals awarded by the Allied Powers at various dates to the British Forces for distinguished services rendered during the course of the campaign:—

…

HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS.

Ordre de la Couronne (p 4522)

...

Chevalier.

…

Temporary Lieutenant (acting Captain) Cecil Frederick Joseph Liddell, King's Royal Rifle Corps.

…

Croix de Guerre (p 4525)

Temporary Lieutenant (acting Captain) Cecil Frederick Joseph Liddell, King's Royal Rifle Corps.

LG 31368 30 May 1919

The undermentioned relinquish the actg.

rank of Capt. : —

On ceasing to comd. T.M. Batts. 15th Apr. 1919: —

Temp. Lt. C. F. J. Liddell, M.C., Serv. Bn., K.R. Rif. C.

…

LG 29 Oct 1920

K.R. Rif. C.

…

Temp. Lt. C. F. J. Liddell, M.C., relinquishes his commission on completion of service, 2 Nov. 1920, and is granted the rank of Capt.

Whether Cecil Liddell practised at the Bar, for which he had qualified in 1914, I have not discovered. For years after the war, the main mentions of Cecil Liddell in The Times (Digital archive) were of his annual performances with The Windsor Strollers in November or December (his father was a still a leading light too) and with the Old Stagers in their summer shows in Canterbury.

He went to society balls in London and St Moritz; he was best man for his brother Guy when he married Calypso Baring in 1926, but never married himself. When he died unexpectedly at 61 on 19 February, 1952, the obituary by 'A friend' in The Times gave the impression that he had been a charmer who had done nothing at all for a living since the Great War.

'CAPTAIN CECIL LIDDELL

The life of a large circle of devoted friends will never be quite the same since Cecil has left us. His unbounded charm, kindness, and sense of fun were unique and irreplaceable. A vital personality, selfless and capable of sharing the joys and sorrows of others with deep understanding. A great lover of beauty, who never forgot a fine rendering of a musical phrase, a line of poetry, or other works of art that once delighted him. His presence added a glow to every gathering, no one was jollier than Cecil around a Christmas table and no one more loved by children. One of his outstanding qualities was the great devotion for his parents, his brothers, and his loyalty to his friends who will always remember him with love.'

This was its entirety and I have not found another obituary.

Yet The Liddell Diaries show that Cecil was head of MI5's Irish Section from 1939 and was a shrewd operator, even though he did not achieve quite the distinction of his brother Guy, head of counter-espionage during WW2. There is a great deal of speculation, even now, about their era, and friendships with Philby, Burgess, Maclean and Blunt; there was even an accusation that Guy was the Fifth Man. The Liddells were a complex family and it would be fascinating to know more about them. But I digress…

Edited 12 August , 2017 by Liz in Eastbourne
Re-insert photo

[acarrick]

Just come across this fascinating thread. I am researching Rifleman Alfred A Clegg C12769, attested Hull Nov 1915 and joined Helmsley. He was in 21st Bn KRR and was posted to 11th Bn KRRC in Oct 1917, KIA at Cambrai the following month. Don't know if this helps fill any gaps for anyone, but this thread has certainly filled some of mine, thank you.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thanks, Andrew - nice to hear you're also researching a Yeoman Rifleman. It can be addictive, if you're not careful.

I had Clegg on my casualty list but hadn't researched him. I see he was born in London and usually resident in Canada though resident in Hull when he enlisted - and that he enlisted in Hull on the same day as GV Dennis. They were both in C Company too (lucky it's stated in Clegg's record, it isn't in quite a number), with Anthony Eden, Collingwood Thorp and John Waldy among their junior officers. I guess, as he was an older man, he wouldn't have been among Dennis's teenage pals. As you may have noticed, the general plan was for men from the north Riding go into A Company but a number of Hull recruits went into C with the Durham and Northumberland men.

Is there any local information on him? Was he wounded before leaving the 21st Bn? The record is so damaged that I couldn't see. He was posted back to the 5th Bn on 27 Sept 17 and to the 11th Bn on 5 November according to the record - so only two weeks before being killed.

Liz

[acarrick]

Yes I have some more info regarding him, I'm working through it at the moment. I have made contact with some relatives still in Canada, but I'm not sure they wish to (or perhaps are unable to) provide anything else. As you'll see from my signature, I'm interested in him as a member of the Insurance Institute of Hull.

No doubt you've seen "The Annals of the KRRC" (Vol 5) by Maj Gen Hare? Sounds like the 11th Bn were practically wiped out at Cambrai.

[Chris_Baker]

A tangent, but if there is anything you need to know about Thomas Tudor Thorp then I am your man. I recently researched his service. With the exception of his parents named as NOK there is no family detail in his service record.