The Majors Batman Posted 26 August , 2010 Share Posted 26 August , 2010 Heard this on the local news today which relates to Private Berry http://www.bbc.co.uk...pshire-11082032 whilst the subject matter may not a Forum item the Individual mentioned would be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 26 August , 2010 Share Posted 26 August , 2010 I hope that these can be reunited with someone who cares for them. As an aside, the opening paragraph did have me wondering just what/who was in the bin: Police are trying to reunite precious World War I documents and jewellery found in a bin with their owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 26 August , 2010 Share Posted 26 August , 2010 If the bins have since been emptied then I'd suggest they search the local rubbish tip for the owner. Cheers, Tim L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
June Underwood Posted 26 August , 2010 Share Posted 26 August , 2010 This is too much to hope for!! I'm sure it won't relate to my relative but I can't let it pass by. My great uncle was Pte Frank Berry 6724 East Yorks Regiment died 26 Nov 1918 at Husler Grove, Leeds. Is anything else known about the man mentioned in the article - it's too small in the link to read any details from the original cutting. June Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 26 August , 2010 Share Posted 26 August , 2010 If the bins have since been emptied then I'd suggest they search the local rubbish tip for the owner. Cheers, Tim L. If I had my way Tim, he/she/it would be holding up one of the new bridges on the expanded M25 western section. From the inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 26 August , 2010 Share Posted 26 August , 2010 This is too much to hope for!! I'm sure it won't relate to my relative but I can't let it pass by. My great uncle was Pte Frank Berry 6724 East Yorks Regiment died 26 Nov 1918 at Husler Grove, Leeds. Is anything else known about the man mentioned in the article - it's too small in the link to read any details from the original cutting. June Why not contact Southampton (Hampshire) police either on their general email (postmaster@hampshire.pnn.police.uk) or the local Safer neighbourhoods team email (portswood.snt@hampshire.pnn.police.uk) and at least register an interest! They may be able to tell you more about the Frank Berry on their documents. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
June Underwood Posted 26 August , 2010 Share Posted 26 August , 2010 David Many thanks for those suggestions - I had just phoned the Hampshire police using the non-emergency number. Helen Ward - the person dealing with the theft - was not available and I was told she would phone me back later today. I've just phoned again only to be told that she has finished work for the day! So I'll now send an email using using one of your addresses. Incidentally, I have looked at my family research notes and have realised that Frank Berry's grandfather was born in Portsmouth, which makes me a bit more hopeful. There must have been many Frank Berry's, though. June Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
June Underwood Posted 27 August , 2010 Share Posted 27 August , 2010 I've now been in touch with Helen Ward, burglary investigation co-ordinator, in Southampton and I don't think that the Frank Berry mentioned is my relative. However, I've now become interested in this and offered to see if anyone on the Forum can help. Helen has sent me a summary of the newspaper report and the telegram. There is no date on either. Article: " Friday evening was a red letter day for Carlow welcoming home one of our young men from the battlefields of Europe. Private Frank Berry. About 2 years ago we bade Frank good bye and wished him God speed and a safe return . He spent 7 months in the trenches and received his wounds at Lens, wounds which our gallant soldier will carry for a long time. He was also shell shocked. Shortly before 8 friends of Frank gathered at the township hall. Reeve Young in the chair, speeches by Rev. R. J. Ross, John Young, . The ladies of the Colbourne Red Cross served a splendid lunch. " Basically this is the jist of the news paper cutting,. The telegram was sent from Rogate ( Petersfield) to a Miss Berry at Little Hatherden, Andover. It is signed by Ethel.. The 1901 census has a Frank (aged 9) and Mabel Berry (12) both born Stoke, Hants (near Andover). They are in a boarding house in High St, Andover. I can't find Frank in 1911 but Mabel might be staying with her uncle - Albert Edward Berry, farmer, Polhampton Farm, Overton, Hants From the newspaper article it seems that Frank might have gone to Ireland (Carlow) unless anyone knows of another Carlow. Possibly Mabel is the Miss Berry in the telegram. There are too many Frank Berrys in the Medal Index Cards, so I've come to a standstill. Is there anyone who can help to solve this crime? Obviously Helen's main objective is to return the jewelry to it's owner, but I had hoped we might be able to assist her through the military and genealogical records. She was perfectly happy with the idea that I posted the details here. June Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 27 August , 2010 Share Posted 27 August , 2010 .... a summary of the newspaper report and the telegram. There is no date on either. Article: " Friday evening was a red letter day for Carlow welcoming home one of our young men from the battlefields of Europe. Private Frank Berry. About 2 years ago we bade Frank good bye and wished him God speed and a safe return . He spent 7 months in the trenches and received his wounds at Lens, wounds which our gallant soldier will carry for a long time. He was also shell shocked. Shortly before 8 friends of Frank gathered at the township hall. Reeve Young in the chair, speeches by Rev. R. J. Ross, John Young, . The ladies of the Colbourne Red Cross served a splendid lunch. " Basically this is the jist of the news paper cutting,. >><< From the newspaper article it seems that Frank might have gone to Ireland (Carlow) unless anyone knows of another Carlow. >><< There are too many Frank Berrys in the Medal Index Cards, so I've come to a standstill. June Well, there are a number of clues (my italics above - and my updated thoughts based on others' input (30 August 2010) in italics below) Carlow - only know of the Irish County/Town; implication is that the newspaper is local to Carlow(we now know that this is almost certainly in Canada) About 2 years ago - if we could fix the newspaper article's date that might imply a "date entered theatre" which would help narrow down the medal cards If he returned to Carlow, any address on the medal card might be in Carlow Carlow would imply (as a first guess) Royal Dublin Fusiliers (20 Berrys on MiCs with RDF; no Franks though)(red herring: now look for CEF etc.) Date of Lens (June 1917?) minus 7 months might give an alternative way to approximate the "date entered theatre" (approx last quarter 1916?) on the MICs(someone will know which CEF units were involved in Lens) Township hall - would that imply Ireland (as in Townland)? I am not sure that I have seen "townships" (at least in England outside of new towns)(further evidence of non-England - consistent with Canada) Rev. R. J. Ross might lead us towards a location. Note, not Father R J Ross, so probably CoI/Presbyterian - or CoE/NonConformist if I am wrong about Ireland(I wonder whether there is a database of Anglican Clergymen in Canada and whether it is possible to get back to local church records - service of thanks-giving, subsequent marriages etc.) Colbourne. I can only find a Colbourne hamlet (in the Isle of Wight)(Canadian evidence now found) Wounds and Shell shock may imply a SWB Anyone else have any thoughts? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apwright Posted 27 August , 2010 Share Posted 27 August , 2010 Lots of Carlows: 2 in South Africa, one in Missouri USA, one in Zimbabwe, one in Germany (probably not!), at least 2 in Canada - one of which is Carlow, Huron Co., Ontario, which is now in the recently-amalgamated Township of Ashfield–Colborne–Wawanosh. The Canadian Attestation Papers show 2 Frank BERRYs with links to the UK and Ontario: 348392 Frank Berry, born Ipswich, Suffolk 18/12/1894, enlisted in Toronto 4/10/15, "Transferred from 'C' Battery RCHA (CEF)", NoK mother Elizabeth, 19 Commercial Rd, Ipswich. 10993 & 157096 Frank (Arthur) Berry, born Brighouse, Yorks 10 or 15/5/1888, enlisted St Catherines 22/9/14 (19th Bn) and 27/9/15 (81st Bn CEF). NoK wife Sadie 13 McDonald St, St Catherine. The first chap looks interesting! He was an only child, but his mother was unmarried. 1901 49 Commercial Rd, Ipswich BERRY Elizabeth, Head, Widow, 69, born Chelsea BERRY Elizabeth J, Dau, Single, 31, Tailoress, born Ipswich BERRY Frank, Grandson, 6, born Ipswich 1911 19 Commercial Rd, Ipswich BERRY Elizabeth, Head, Widow, 79, born Chelsea BERRY Elizabeth, Dau, Single, 39, General Shop, born Ipswich BRYANT William, Boarder, Single, 38, Shunter GER, born Sudbury Frank is probably in Canada already, but I can only find him returning to Canada in 1914 aboard the SS Andania. Frank Berry, age 19, farmer, departed Southampton on 30/4/14 for Montreal, last residence Ipswich. Frank Berry, age 19, farm worker, arrived Montreal on 10/5/14 from Southampton via Cobh, destination Creemore Ont, has previously lived in Ontario for 3 years. I'm pretty sure that this is the Frank Berry who married Marie Agnes TRIMBROKE in Toronto on 1 July 1922. The age is right (27) and he was born in England, but he gives his parents as Johnathan [sic] BERRY and Elizabeth GODBOLD. This may have been a fib because "our" Frank's mum was apparently unmarried, but his grandfather's name was Jonathan, according to the 1891 census (Jonathan BERRY married Elizabeth COLLER in Ipswich Q1 1869). Not sure where he got the name Godbold from ... The censuses put Frank's mother Elizabeth Jane in Ipswich, but she could have been visiting in Andover perhaps...? And she was a Miss. An Elizabeth J BERRY married John BOX in Ipswich in Q4 1917. I wonder if that was her? Adrian EDIT: The Brighouse Frank Berry died in France in 1918, so we can probably discount him as returning home: Name: BERRY Initials: F Nationality: Canadian Rank: Private Regiment/Service: Canadian Infantry (Central Ontario Regiment) Unit Text: 4th Bn. Age: 29 Date of Death: 22/01/1918 Service No: 157096 Additional information: Son of Benjamin and Mary Berry, of Brighouse, Yorks, England; husband of Sadie Berry, of 13, McDonald St., St. Catharines, Ontario. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: IV. G. 5. Cemetery: BULLY-GRENAY COMMUNAL CEMETERY, BRITISH EXTENSION http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=29939 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 27 August , 2010 Share Posted 27 August , 2010 David, townships could be sub-divisions of very large parishes. For example, Hope parish, near Wrexham, had seven: Uwchmynydd, Cymau, Caergwrle, Rhanberfedd, Hope Owen, Shordley and Estyn. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
June Underwood Posted 27 August , 2010 Share Posted 27 August , 2010 I've found him!! Thank you Adrian - You got me thinking on different lines as I'd thought Carlow was the Irish one. So I searched the Canadian Great War Project and I've located Frank Berry. He's not one of the ones that you mentioned but is 654746 Pte William Frank Berry, Canadian Infantry 161st Bn. His next of kin is his sister, Mabel Berry of Overton, Hampshire. He died in 1955. His attestation papers can be seen, but he is listed as William Frank Berry. http://www.canadiangreatwarproject.com/searches/soldierDetail.asp?ID=71381 That's one stage further, but it doesn't answer the problem the police have in trying to discover who is the owner of the jewelry. Thank you everyone for your suggestions and comments. June Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apwright Posted 27 August , 2010 Share Posted 27 August , 2010 Well done, June! That must be him. Goderich is just "next door" to Carlow, Ont. Mabel possibly married Herbert H COLEBROOK in Andover district in Q4 1923. (Herbert Harry, born Andover Q2 1889, served in Hants Yeomanry 1603 and Hampshire Regt 204738 in WW1) A daughter Mary was born in Andover in Q4 1927. Herbert died in Basingstoke in 1950 aged 61. Mabel died in Droxford, Hants, in 1970 (DoB 16 Jan 1889). Mary may have married Norman T SMITH in Basingstoke in Q2 1952. Can't find any children. Past midnight here, so turning in now. Will have another look in the morning! Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 27 August , 2010 Share Posted 27 August , 2010 David, townships could be sub-divisions of very large parishes. For example, Hope parish, near Wrexham, had seven: Uwchmynydd, Cymau, Caergwrle, Rhanberfedd, Hope Owen, Shordley and Estyn. Keith Thanks - not something I have met before (but I do have an English-centric experience!) David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 27 August , 2010 Share Posted 27 August , 2010 I've found him!! Thank you Adrian - You got me thinking on different lines as I'd thought Carlow was the Irish one. So I searched the Canadian Great War Project and I've located Frank Berry. He's not one of the ones that you mentioned but is 654746 Pte William Frank Berry, Canadian Infantry 161st Bn. His next of kin is his sister, Mabel Berry of Overton, Hampshire. He died in 1955. His attestation papers can be seen, but he is listed as William Frank Berry. http://www.canadiang...il.asp?ID=71381 That's one stage further, but it doesn't answer the problem the police have in trying to discover who is the owner of the jewelry. Thank you everyone for your suggestions and comments. June Brilliant - probably the stuff belongs to a (possibly distant) relative! On another thread a member posted this link for researching Canadian Soldiers: Researching Canadian Soldiers of the First World War Possibly in the 1901 Ontario Census (sister Mabel on the next line 3 years older): http://automatedgenealogy.com/census/View.jsp?id=34387&highlight=19&desc=1901+Census+of+Canada+page+containing+Frank+Berry If this is him - he has a fair number of siblings! (Click on the split screen link near the top to see the actual Census image - no subscription charges!) He might also be on the 1911 Ontario Census, but the match is not that certain! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
June Underwood Posted 27 August , 2010 Share Posted 27 August , 2010 Adrian. you've just gone down the same road that I have been doing. I came to exactly all the same conclusions as you did - even to Norman T Smith. I've just emailed them to Helen Ward and suggested that she could get the Will of Mabel Colebrook and hopefully find the beneficiaries of her estate. If there are any further developments I'll post them here. Many thanks for your interest and help. June Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
June Underwood Posted 27 August , 2010 Share Posted 27 August , 2010 David, Sorry, I missed your reply when I last looked. It's a good idea about the Canadian census but I'm not sure that the entries are the correct ones, as Mabel was born in 1889 and Frank in 1892. I shall certainly use the census again and it's great that the date of birth is given. I hadn't seen the other link that you sent, although I know the Library and Archives site well. I've just been reading a bit more about it though and see that they are now adding the digitised copies of the actual service files, so I'll have to go through all my Canadian soldiers again to see if the papers have been added yet. Thanks for your help June Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 27 August , 2010 Share Posted 27 August , 2010 David, Sorry, I missed your reply when I last looked. It's a good idea about the Canadian census but I'm not sure that the entries are the correct ones, as Mabel was born in 1889 and Frank in 1892. I shall certainly use the census again and it's great that the date of birth is given. I hadn't seen the other link that you sent, although I know the Library and Archives site well. I've just been reading a bit more about it though and see that they are now adding the digitised copies of the actual service files, so I'll have to go through all my Canadian soldiers again to see if the papers have been added yet. Thanks for your help June June, I am now confused! In post 8 you suggested from 1901 England Census that Frank was 9 > b 1892 yet in the linked material off your post 12 (CEF soldier detail) his DoB is given as 23 May 1888 We have a number of alternative hypothesis on the run! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apwright Posted 28 August , 2010 Share Posted 28 August , 2010 Found Mabel in 1891, and she has a sister called Ethel! 1891 The White Hart, St Mary Bourne (next village to Stoke!) [EDIT: Actually the White Hart pub is in Stoke (it's still there!) in the parish of St Mary Bourne. There's also a Jones Farm on the edge of the village on the road to Hurstbourne Tarrant.] JONES William, Head, Widow, 68, Licensed Victualler, b Chute Hants BERRY William F, Son-in-Law, 33, Erchfont, Wilts BERRY Mary, Dau, 36, b St Mary Bourne, Hants BERRY Mary Addelaide, Granddau, 5, b St Mary Bourne, Hants BERRY Ethel, Granddau, 3, b St Mary Bourne, Hants BERRY Mable [sic], Granddau, 2, b St Mary Bourne, Hants Frank is not born yet. He must be the William Francis born in Whitchurch district in Q2 1891. Their father was also called William Francis (married Mary JONES in Whitchurch Q1 1885 and died in Q1 1892 aged just 33). In 1901, (Mary) Adelaide and Ethel BERRY are Draper's Assistants at the drapery of John H JONES (probably unrelated as he's from Glamorgan) at 124 High St, Camberwell, London. In 1911, Adelaide Mary [sic] is in service with the WEST family in Braintree, Essex. Still unmarried. A William Francis Berry, age 13 (though the outgoing list says 9), landed at Portland, Maine, USA on 11 April 1905 aboard the SS Kensington from Liverpool bound for Halifax NS, among a party of Barnardo's Boys. Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
June Underwood Posted 29 August , 2010 Share Posted 29 August , 2010 David, I don't quite know what to think now with the discrepancy in the dates of birth and wonder whether Frank gave a false dob of 23 May 1888. Yesterday I found a likely candidate on a Barnados Boys website but only wrote down the basic details, intending to go back and have a proper look, but now I can't find the site! I noted that a Frank (or William Frank) left Liverpool on the Lake Manitoba departing 16 Mar 1911. I know it didn't give the place of birth in England. Adrian, the entries you have found in the censuses all sound to relate to Pte Frank Berry. Where did you find the Passenger Lists? The age of 13 in 1905 fits in with a birth in 1892. The telegram must have been from Ethel to her sister Miss Berry. I wonder whether there is anything more that we can do. I'm waiting for a reply from Helen Ward but I suppose she won't be in at work till Tuesday, after the holiday. June Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 30 August , 2010 Share Posted 30 August , 2010 It might be useful if the Original Poster, edited his first post so as to change the sub-title to include Private William Frank Berry CEF? That might draw in the CEF specialists. Despite the currently contradictory evidence, it does point strongly towards the soldier being Canadian - albeit originally English. We also need to be aware that it is probable that there are a number of Frank/Mabel Berry siblings in that period! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apwright Posted 30 August , 2010 Share Posted 30 August , 2010 June, The passenger lists I found are as follows. Note that there was (at least?) one other William Berry aboard, also a Barnardo's Boy. The discrepancies in the ages may be due to confusion between the two?? FindMyPast: Passenger lists leaving UK 1890-1960 Manifest of SS Kensington departing Liverpool 30 March 1905 for Portland (p.21:) Wm Berry, age 7, contracted to land Portland (p.23:) Wm F Berry, Child, age 9, contracted to land Portland Ancestry: Atlantic Ports Passenger Lists, 1820-1873 and 1893-1959 Manifest of Alien Passengers for US Immigration, SS Kensington from Liverpool March 30, 1905, arriving Portland, Maine, April 11, 1905 William F BERRY, age 9 (no sign of William no-F Berry!) Ancestry: Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s William Francis Berry, year 1905, age 13, place Portland, Maine, SS Kensington William Berry, year 1905, age 9, place Portland, Maine, SS Kensington and William Francis Berry, year 1905, age 13, place Halifax, Nova Scotia, SS Kensington William Berry, year 1905, age 9, place Halifax, Nova Scotia, SS Kensington Ancestry: Canadian Passenger Lists 1865-1935 William Francis Berry, 13, arr 10 Apr 1905 at Halifax, 11 Apr at Portland, SS Kensington from Liverpool William Berry, 9, arr 10 Apr 1905 at Halifax, 11 Apr at Portland, SS Kensington from Liverpool Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Majors Batman Posted 31 August , 2010 Author Share Posted 31 August , 2010 It might be useful if the Original Poster, edited his first post so as to change the sub-title to include Private William Frank Berry CEF? That might draw in the CEF specialists. Despite the currently contradictory evidence, it does point strongly towards the soldier being Canadian - albeit originally English. We also need to be aware that it is probable that there are a number of Frank/Mabel Berry siblings in that period! David Is that better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 1 September , 2010 Share Posted 1 September , 2010 Is that better I hope so - let's seem whether it now catches the eye of the CEF specialists! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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