Leave granted from France

[Tyrim]

Can anyone decipher what happened here? It seems to be a leave was granted for 30 days with the soldier returning after only 2 days. Am I correct?

And what is the significance of "4" and "41"?

Thanks in advance

tyrim

[David B]

I read it as travelling time granted/taken as 2 days, so really his leave started 20-9-18 and completed his 30 on 19 Oct 18.

David

[Tyrim]

David,

Thank you for your speedy reply.

Sorry about how the image appears. I had trouble putting it on the post (couldn't reduce it) so it has a slide bar at the bottom.

The part that confuses me is way off to the right where the date on the "arr. TTBD (Train Troops Base Depot) ex leave" line is shown as 20 9 18. It appears to time stamp the return from leave. There are no other entries below it.

tyrim

[David B]

Tyrim,

No problem with the attachment, came out normally. Incidentally with Windows 7 one can expand the image as much as necessary and, usually, no loss of legibility.

Re the 4 and 41 which I was to put in and inadvertently omitted, possible that 4 refers to the number of leaves he had had, and the 41 the number of days accrued. Otherwise I am at a loss.

David

[charlesmessenger]

I read it that his leave was granted for the period 4-18 Sep 18 and that he reported back to TTBD on 20 Sep.

Charles M

[Ken Lees]

I read this extract as showing that his leave was from the 4th to the 18th September, 1918 (The normal period of leave was 14 days) and 'Arr. IIBD' as Arrived at the 'I' Infantry Base Depot on his return from leave. The Infantry Base Depots, which were originally numbered, were reorganised and subsequently identified by a letter of the alphabet by 1918.

'41 of 19.10.18' could be the document reference that these dates were taken from for record purposes.

That's my interpretation.

Ken

[centurion]

The railway system in Northern France run by ROD was not very efficient at getting individual soldiers back to their units. Miss a connection and you might have to wait until the next day. Some soldiers 'milked' this to extend their leave and become effectively tourists. Miss a connection (sometimes accidentally on purpose) you'd report to the town major who'd have to find you accommodation for the night and then could spend the rest of the day looking round the town, supping in a cafe etc. You could show 'zeal' by trying to find another route back to your unit and visit a number of towns. Taking two or more days to get back to your unit was not unusual and the soldiers concerned were not usually charged with AWOL as they were in the Army system the whole time. I suspect the 2 days on the record represent such 'extra' time taken to return.

[charlesmessenger]

Ken

There were no T IBD at thgis stage of the war. I am certain that it is the Transportation Troops Base Depot.

Charles M

[Ken Lees]

Charles,

I bow to your greater knowledge. I was reading the 'T' of TIBD as an 'I'.

Thank you for your clarification.

Ken

[headgardener]

Hang on! You're both right!

It says TTBD at the end of the first line, and IIBD at the start of the 2nd line, surely? Honour satisfied?

But I'm going to disagree with Centurion's interpretation of this case; it says that he arrived at 'I' IBD (rather than his unit, unless he was on the staff there, of course) on the 20th, which I'd say represents travel time on top of his leave period in the UK. He'd have some serious explaining to do if it took him 2 days getting from the port to the IBD (I think that the IBD's were all in the vicinity of the ports, for obvious reasons, but I'm happy to hear other opinons on this).

[centurion]

But I'm going to disagree with Centurion's interpretation of this case; it says that he arrived at 'I' IBD (rather than his unit, unless he was on the staff there, of course) on the 20th, which I'd say represents travel time on top of his leave period in the UK. He'd have some serious explaining to do if it took him 2 days getting from the port to the IBD (I think that the IBD's were all in the vicinity of the ports, for obvious reasons, but I'm happy to hear other opinons on this).

Sorry but I never mentioned IBD so I think you're interpreting my posting in ways I didn't intend.. For details of the practice of spinning out leave by missing trains see Brophy and Partridge.

[charlesmessenger]

Headgardener

No, I think that the second entry is also TTBD, it is just the way the clerk has written his Ts. In any event the Infantry Base Depots ran A-F, H, and J-M at this stage of the war; there was no I IBD.

Charles M

[headgardener]

Sorry but I never mentioned IBD so I think you're interpreting my posting in ways I didn't intend.. For details of the practice of spinning out leave by missing trains see Brophy and Partridge.

I don't doubt you for a moment when you say that this was a well-established method of gaining a bit of extra leave (I'm summarising your post, I hope I'm not misrepresenting what you said). I was disagreeing with your suggestion (the last sentence of that particular post) that the 2 days mentioned on this man's record were likely to be an example of this; my reason for disagreeing is that the IBD's were, to the best of my knowledge, all near the ports so it would be unlikely that he could have got an extra couple of days out of his journey. Although I'll admit that I don't know exactly where 'I' IBD was, so I may be wrong about this. Any opinions?

Edit; Charles, I've seen your post and must also bow to your superior knowledge of this subject. Any idea where TTBD was?

[centurion]

Yes but leave ran from leaving your unit to arriving back and didn't include travel time (a matter of some discontent) making the assumption that you could get back to England and return reasonably quickly. The time between various receiving bits of the army and getting back to the unit in theory was still part of your leave (after all you didn't have to go back to England you could enjoy a nice continental holiday like some of the Australians, Canadians and later Americans did ). However in practice it was very difficult (at least with a straight face) to punish a man because ROD and other parts of the army got him back late.

[Tyrim]

Thank you all for your input!

What I thought would be a simple question is clearly more complicated than I imagined. Part of the confusion is due to my not putting the entire page along with my question. I've tried to attach it but it's too big and I can't seem to reduce it enough. Sorry for that!

It does show TTBD, Calais. (Transportation Troops Base Depot- thank you Charles M. I thought it was "train".)

In other places what looks like 22BD I take to be TTBD in script.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that extra travel time was allowed for Scottish and Irish troops. I can't cite a source for this so will have to do some digging. In my own experience, leave time began when the papers came into my hands and ended when I turned them in again. Travel time was only included if a transfer to a new location was involved.

tyrim

[Tyrim]

I knew I read it on the Forum!

In the thread "HOME LEAVE", Chris Henschke posted:

"Laterin the war, it also depended on where he lived.

From SS 523 REGULATIONS REGARDING LEAVE dated 3 August 1917

"1. Ordinary LEAVE will be granted to Officers and men for periods of ten days Boulogne or Calais, and 11 days Havre. For instance, if a man proceeds on LEAVE on November 15th via Boulogne or Calais, his LEAVE terminates on November 25th; if via Havre, his LEAVE terminates on November 26th. The former date will be the date of leaving the Port of Embarkation in France, and the latter the date on which an Officer or man embarks at the Port of Embarkation in England.

2. The only exception will be those residing in the Orkneys, Hebrides, Isle of Man and Channel Islands, to whom 12 days' LEAVE will be given.

.....

CONDITIONS

11.- Preference is to be given to those who have been longest out of the United Kingdom.

It is essential that those who have been out of the United Kingdom for over one year and have had no LEAVE should be granted LEAVE at the earliest opportunity.

...

12.- Under no circumstances will an Officer or man be granted ORDINARY LEAVE until he has served three months out of the United kingdom, or until three months have elapsed since the date of return from his last leave."

Chris Henschke"

Odd that Ireland wasn't considered for an additional day. Belfast, for instance, must have been quite a journey from the Channel Ports.