Identifying a regiment

[sued]

I'm trying to identify which regiment my grandfather belonged to. The only thing I have to go on is this photo. I've had a look through a book of badges to try to identify the cap badge, and think it may be what is called the 'General List'. Is there anybody out there who can confirm this, or come up with a different suggestion? I realise that the picture quality may not be good enough, but any help would be gratefully received. Sue

[Graham Stewart]

Hi Sue - Have downloaded the photo to look at, although it does blur quite quickly, but in my honest opinion, we're possibly looking at a group belonging to the Volunteer Force post July 1916, as they are wearing the 'Royal Arms' capbadge.

The Volunteer Force was created in 1916 from the various independent units of the Volunteer Training Corps, and they were ineffect the Home Guard of WWI. If you can find a photographers mark on the reverse on the photo you could possibly narrow the unit down.

The General List was the preserve of the officers and not other ranks during this period. These officers also wore the Royal Arms capbadge as did the Labour Corps on its formation, but from looking at your photo, I'm almost certain these are Volunteer Force men.

[headgardener]

I think that we're getting 'General List' and 'General Service' mixed up; these men look like they're wearing General Service cap-badges. General List is exactly what Graham suggests in the previous post. A GS cap-badge could place them in a number of different units. But not the Volunteers, who had a very different style of uniform and generally a different cap-badge. I'd suggest that they could be home-service Labour Corps men. They certainly don't look like they're front-line men.

[sued]

Thankyou for your replies. Some family members have said that my grandfather was possibly involved in fire-fighting duties during the war, so that would be consistent with being in the Volunteer Force. Where could I look at Volunteer and Labour Corps badges? - they don't seem to be in my book. I'll also struggle with the technology and try to post a cropped picture of the badge. Sue

[sued]

I've found a picture of the Labour corps badge, but it doesn't seem to match the image I've attached here. It cetainly does look like the Royal Arms badge mentioned in a previous post. I've looked up the Volunteer Force, but thought it became the Territorial force in 1908 - or is that something different? Would members of the Volunteer Force have carried on with their day job? We believe my grandfather was exempt from service as he worked for the Gas Company.

[PhilB]

It could be Manchester Regt if he was from that neck of the woods?

[sued]

No, he was from Glasgow.

[truthergw]

The photograph does not present enough to make a certain identification. We could spend a lot of time suggesting units which could be right but we still would not be certain. To approach your problem from a slightly different direction. What was your GF's name and age? Where did he live at the time in question? Are there any medals? Where did he work? Without some definite evidence, I think you can put the VF out of your mind. That predated the Great War by some years.

[sued]

He was called James Brown (unfortunately a very common name in Scotland!) and was born in Glasgow. The family always thought he was exempt from service because he worked for the Gas Compnay, although there were stories of him fire-fighting, and someone said it was thought he was in some sort of Home Guard. Then his attestation paper was found - he was attested on November 24th 1915 - and the photo of him in uniform turned up. There are no medals as far as we know, and we don't believe he went abroad. Thankyou for all the suggestions upto now.

[CT-Guards]

General List/ Service Corps badge.

[Graham Stewart]

I think that we're getting 'General List' and 'General Service' mixed up; these men look like they're wearing General Service cap-badges. General List is exactly what Graham suggests in the previous post. A GS cap-badge could place them in a number of different units. But not the Volunteers, who had a very different style of uniform and generally a different cap-badge. I'd suggest that they could be home-service Labour Corps men. They certainly don't look like they're front-line men.

Have to say that the "Royal Arms" capbdge, generally but wrongly described as General Service capbadge was indeed worn by the Volunteer Force post 1916. There were two Volunteer Forces within the history of the British Auxillary forces. The first Volunteer Force dates from 1860-1908, when on the 1st April of that year it was reformed as the Territorial Force. The second Volunteer Force was formed as previously mentioned from the VTC in July 1916. As such they were formed into Volunteer Regiments until mid-1918, when all except London units, became affiliated to local regiments or corps and in turn capbadges of county regiments or corps were then adopted.

In turn they became the new "Volunteer Battalions" etc of those units they were affiliated too. Scottish elements of the Volunteer Force were badged and uniformed the same as their English/Welsh comrades(in SD) and didn't adopt Scottish dress until the affiliations in 1918. Another distinguishing feature of their uniform was their shoulder titles, which were for the most part, white worsted cotton woven into the shoulder strap bearing a 'V' over the County title, i.e. V/MIDLOTHIAN - V/LANARKSHIRE etc. So even if from Glasgow they would look no different to those in either England or Wales.

[truthergw]

He was called James Brown (unfortunately a very common name in Scotland!) and was born in Glasgow. The family always thought he was exempt from service because he worked for the Gas Compnay, although there were stories of him fire-fighting, and someone said it was thought he was in some sort of Home Guard. Then his attestation paper was found - he was attested on November 24th 1915 - and the photo of him in uniform turned up. There are no medals as far as we know, and we don't believe he went abroad. Thankyou for all the suggestions upto now.

Right, lets see what we have. ( It's not much). He was too late for Kitchener's New Armies. That was 1914 and early 1915. He was too early for the re-incarnated VF. His job would not have stopped him from enlisting, there were no reserved occupations until 1916 when conscription was brought in and even then, a man could usually join up if he was determined. The Gas Company may have had some volunteer fire brigade, I do not know. In Dundee, the large works had them. He is not in a Highland unit, no kilt. He is not in a Lowland unit, wrong hat. So HLI and The Argylls are ruled out. They do not look like artillery. I agree that they do not look like frontline troops, I don't know why, just a feeling. If the picture dates from 1915, that was pre- Labour Corps. My guess then is that it is Army Service Corps or something along these lines. A pure guess but I have given you the reasoning behind the guess.

[CT-Guards]

Did you crop the picture? My thoughts are that there may be a clue written on the backdrop - bit of a longshot!!!

Still with the General \Service Corps badge

[sued]

No, the photo wasn't cropped, there's just a pair of curtains in the background.

[Graham Stewart]

Right, lets see what we have. ( It's not much). He was too late for Kitchener's New Armies. That was 1914 and early 1915. He was too early for the re-incarnated VF. His job would not have stopped him from enlisting, there were no reserved occupations until 1916 when conscription was brought in and even then, a man could usually join up if he was determined. The Gas Company may have had some volunteer fire brigade, I do not know. In Dundee, the large works had them. He is not in a Highland unit, no kilt. He is not in a Lowland unit, wrong hat. So HLI and The Argylls are ruled out. They do not look like artillery. I agree that they do not look like frontline troops, I don't know why, just a feeling. If the picture dates from 1915, that was pre- Labour Corps. My guess then is that it is Army Service Corps or something along these lines. A pure guess but I have given you the reasoning behind the guess.

Don't wish to be padantic here, but you're barking up the wrong tree here. It doesn't matter from where he came from - if he was a member of the Volunteer Force post 1916, he would dress the same as all other Volunteers with no distinction from English/Welsh units, i.e. he would wear Service Dress complete with SD cap. Dress distinction for members of Scottish Volunteer Regiments didn't appear until 1918.

[truthergw]

Don't wish to be padantic here, but you're barking up the wrong tree here. It doesn't matter from where he came from - if he was a member of the Volunteer Force post 1916, he would dress the same as all other Volunteers with no distinction from English/Welsh units, i.e. he would wear Service Dress complete with SD cap. Dress distinction for members of Scottish Volunteer Regiments didn't appear until 1918.

Not my field really, Graham but I understand the picture to be 1915. According to your dates, there was no VF at that time.

[Graham Stewart]

He is said to have attested 1915, but may not have served due to whatever reason, which happens often. My feeling is that he probably also served with one of the Glasgow VTC units prior to the change over in 1916. Attached is a photo sent to me by one of our members showing two lads in Haddingtonshire Volunteer Regiment, which eventually became a Volunteer Battalion of the Royal Scots.

It's a difficult subject to grasp, but several years ago I wrote an article on the Volunteer Training Corps for Military Modeller explaining the formation of these Corps and subsequent formation of the Volunteer Force.

[sued]

I've been searching the internet to find references to the Volunteers and have come across a book called 'The Glasgow Volunteers - Recollections 1914-1918' by JB Kidston. Apparently it's a personal account of the Home Service Volunteers from enlistment in 1914 in the Citizens' Training Force as it was first called - later the Volunteer Bn HLI. Could this be what my grandfather belonged to?

[Graham Stewart]

I'm not really familiar with Glasgow as a city but it's more than likely that's who he served with. What I can tell you is that the City of Glasgow Volunteer Regiment consisted of four battalions;-

1st Bn, City of Glasgow Volunteer Regt - H.Q. - 24 Hill St, Garnethill, Glasgow( became 1st Volunteer Bn, H.L.I.)

2nd Bn, City of Glasgow Volunteer Regt - H.Q. - Coplow St, Victoria Rd, Glasgow( became 1st Volunteer Bn, Cameronians)

3rd Bn, City of Glasgow Volunteer Regt - H.Q. - 19 Taylor St, Glasgow( became 2nd Volunteer Bn, Cameronians)

4th Bn, City of Glasgow Volunteer Regt - H.Q. - Yorkhill Parade, Glasgow( became 2nd Volunteer Bn, H.L.I.)

[dycer]

Just some additional information on the photo of the Haddingtonshire Volunteer Soldiers Graham has posted.

The seated Soldier joined the Regiment on 18 July 1917 at the age of 16 and served with it and its successor, the 5th(Volunteer Battalion)Royal Scots, until April 1919.

George

[Graham Stewart]

Thank you George. - From my collection some lads from Midlothian Volunteer Regiment identified from an address on the reverse of the pc.

[Graham Stewart]

From the same photo - hopefully a shot of the V/MIDLOTHIAN title as mentioned in an earlier post woven into the shoulder strap in white worsted cotton.

[headgardener]

I originally posted that I thought the picture could have been home service Labour Corps men, but having followed Graham's posts, and having reviewed my own photos of VTC and post VTC volunteers, I'd agree with him and say they're Volunteers and that the pic dates from about 1917.

But doesn't his Attestation paper tell you anything? Surely it indicates what unit he was attested into?

I also wanted to point out that there were no 'reserved' occupations, even after the introduction of conscription in 1916; men in what we would now understand to be 'reserved' occupations were placed in catagories that weren't 'called up' until well after most other men, and they would then have had the opportunity to appeal for exemption from service. Involvement in vital work for which there were no other available men or women was a valid reason for exemption.

[sued]

I've just had another look at the attestation paper, and apparently my grandfather was transferred to the Army Reserve until required for service, so I assume the photo was taken after he had been assigned to a regiment. Anyway it looks as if he belonged to the Volunteers, so I'm going to try to get hold of the aforementioned book. Thankyou to everyone for your suggestions - it's been very helpful.