Trench Ref

[kawasaki]

can anyone aaist me with the following refF.15.b.8.24.

Thanks

Gloster Mike

[kawasaki]

Apologies for the typo, the location is near Lempire, i am trying to locate where my great uncle was wounded and then subsequently died. He was in the Battalion 1/5 Glosters

[ander11]

Hi there mike do you have a name for your great uncle

Ian

[kawasaki]

Hi there mike do you have a name for your great uncle Ian

Arthur John Terry

Ian

Ian

Arthur John Terry

[SWorrall]

Ian

Arthur John Terry

Square F15 is immediately west of F16, which is where Lempire is located, and immediately north of Ronssoy in F21.

Stand on the rue de la Liberation at the junction of the Lempire road onto the modern D58, look Northwest towards Epehy and you're looking across F15, from the middle of the eastern side to the north-western corner.

Pic attached.

Your great uncle was born in St. Georges, Bristol and joined up in Bristol.

He lies interred, as you probably know, near le Havre. This suggests that he died of wounds in a base hospital near the port.

His date of death is late April 1917. His battalion and Brigade (145th, part of 48th (South Midland) division) were in action on April 4th near Lempire, capturing that place and Ronssoy.

All this agrees with the location that you have.

Simon.

And here's another, cruder map, which however shows a little more of F15.

[kawasaki]

Simon

many thanks for the information, i really appreciate your response..The position of Arthur's battalion was give as HQF 8.c.24, was this in Lempire?

Regards

Mike

[kawasaki]

Simon

he was admitted to No2 General Hospital (Le Havre)on 8th April and died from his wounds on 26th April. Was buried in Le havre

I have managed to locate his medical records at national Archives, which apparently was a stroke of luck.

[SWorrall]

Simon

many thanks for the information, i really appreciate your response..The position of Arthur's battalion was give as HQF 8.c.24, was this in Lempire?

Regards

Mike

I've dug up a trench map of the area from 1918.

You can clearly see the square numbering here. F8 is north of F15, astride the modern D58, and halfway between Epehy village and Ronssoy/Lempire.

Malassise Farm sits astride the northern border of F8. So any reference to F8 would be located within this square.

The battalion war diary is available for PDF digital download. The National Archives reference is WO 95/2763. 563 pages for a one-off fee of £3.50. (This also includes that for 1st Ox & Bucks LI).

You should find references to bn. location and movements, and quite possibly casualty returns etc.

The diary of the Assistant Director of Medical Services at 48th division is not yet available in this way but can be viewed in person at Kew.

[SWorrall]

You can see from this that Lempire sits in F10 / F16, principally F16. But remember that if F8 is where Bn. HQ was then the fighting troops would have been advanced from that position, i.e. in Lempire and Ronssoy.

The edge of Epehy village is just out of shot on this jpg. If you follow the road north-west from Ronssoy / Lempire / Basse Boulogne off the map in the north-west corner then Epehy starts pretty much immediately as you 'fall off' the map-edge.

F8 seems a reasonable place for an HQ to have been. There is the small hillock in the eastern half of the square with a dip down towards Quid Copse before rising up towards Basse Boulogne, which would have offered good views towards troops fighting in front of it. Lempire would have been to the left seen from this hillock, with Ronssoy on the right. The road running through Lempire and Ronssoy sits on the crest of a low ridge. The view of Ronssoy would have been partly obscured by Ronssoy Wood to the right of the view. Likewise May Copse and Enfer Wood (Enfer is French for Hell ! ) might have obscured the far end of Lempire at the left of the view.

The Official History, 1917, vol 1 mentions the attack by 145th Brigade which captured Ronssoy and Lempire on April 4th. This was part of the British / Commonwealth advance to the Hindenburg Line as the Germans retreated to it in the Spring of 1917.

His admittal to hospital on April 8th would tend to suggest that he was injured in this attack, or in the follow-up operations as the British closed on the Hindenburg Line. 3 - 4 days from the front line to reach le Havre is quite reasonable.

Simon.

[kawasaki]

Simon

Again thanks for the information. Do you know where i could also find out about the Military Hospital in Le Havre?

I shall be visiting Lempire/Le Havre cemetary in the Autumn to follow up on your map references.

Thanks

Mike

[kawasaki]

Simon

Looks like he was wounded on the 5th April

Mike

[SWorrall]

Simon

Again thanks for the information. Do you know where i could also find out about the Military Hospital in Le Havre?

I shall be visiting Lempire/Le Havre cemetary in the Autumn to follow up on your map references.

Thanks

Mike

Maps: worth investing £20 in the WFA Somme maps (62C & 62D) ? This is located in sector 62C NE 2.

Other references for the hospitals, you also have;

WO 95/4032 Havre base: deputy Director of medical services.

WO 95/4074 No.2 General Hospital August 1914 - December 1916

WO 95/4075 No.2 General Hospital January 1917 - May 1919 this is perhaps the best place to look? Not available for digital download yet, so a trip to Kew and a personal inspection of the records would be required. Not sure what details are to be found in these hospital records.

#2 general Hospital was located on the quai d'Escale, between the rail-line on one side and the wharves on the other. This quai no longer exists under this name, and I'm certainly no expert on the development of le Havre over the last 90 years, so I hesitate to suggest where this might have been.

You might try to locate;

The official history of the Great War: Medical services; general history, vol 3. Which covers medical services in France 1916 - 1918. But that's probably overkill.

This is where he is interred;

http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_details.aspx?cemetery=2008000&mode=1

A mile north of quai Colbert (i.e. the docks area. Perhaps this is where the Hospital was located?), up the cours de la Republique.

Simon.

[kawasaki]

Simon

Thanks again for all the information provided

Regards

Mike

[kawasaki]

I've dug up a trench map of the area from 1918.

You can clearly see the square numbering here. F8 is north of F15, astride the modern D58, and halfway between Epehy village and Ronssoy/Lempire.

Malassise Farm sits astride the northern border of F8. So any reference to F8 would be located within this square.

The battalion war diary is available for PDF digital download. The National Archives reference is WO 95/2763. 563 pages for a one-off fee of £3.50. (This also includes that for 1st Ox & Bucks LI).

You should find references to bn. location and movements, and quite possibly casualty returns etc.

The diary of the Assistant Director of Medical Services at 48th division is not yet available in this way but can be viewed in person at Kew.

Ian

the WO 95/273 on National Archives returns a medal card ref, not the battalion war diary

could you check the ref for me

Thanks

Mike