Another Bullet Head

[unitedsound]

Found near Ieper, this has similarities with Kirky's item I think.

Any ideas please?

[the_beno]

According to the finding place, the materials and the shape, I say it's a British .303 bullet

[TonyE]

Whereas Kirky's bullet was from a WW2 .50 Browning heavy machine gun, yours is a normal .303 inch Ball Mark VII, probably from WWI. The difference is in the calibre and the length.

The .303 bullet has a composite core with the rear two thirds lead and the forward third aluminium (or fibre sometimes). When it strikes the ground it tends to break up as yours has.

Also, can I make my perrenial plea? They are bullets or projectiles, not bullet heads. The head of a cartridge is the other end, where the headstamp is!

I know this will amuse the regulars but what the hell.....

Cheers

TonyE

[SiegeGunner]

They are bullets or projectiles, not bullet heads.

O give it a rest - this one's been round and round and I'm bored to the core with it.

Sorry, I'll get my jacket ...

[TonyE]

O give it a rest - this one's been round and round and I'm bored to the core with it.

Sorry, I'll get my jacket ...

....and so you should if you don't want to walk home from Pompey tomorrow!

Regards

tonyE

[unitedsound]

Thanks TonyE.

[TonyE]

I have just noticed that in the second photograph Unitedsound posted, you can just see the aluminium tip filler that has remained in the cupro-nickel bullet envelope after the bullet broke up. This is very typical of the behaviour of British Ball Mark VII bullets.

Regards

TonyE

[unitedsound]

Thanks again TonyE.

Can anyone upload an image of this type of bullet?

TIA

David

[the_beno]

Here he is:

[unitedsound]

Thanks to the beno.

What a surprise (to me anyway!).

Final request - just realised I don't know what the gun looks like which would fire it.

Thanks to all who helped.

David

[the_beno]

The guns in which the bullet can be fired are: Lee enfield, Lee metford, Lewis MG, Vickers MG, Bren LMG...

[squirrel]

Something like this.......................

[centurion]

The guns in which the bullet can be fired are: Lee enfield, Lee metford, Lewis MG, Vickers MG, Bren LMG...

And the P14 (303 version), No 4 Rifle, No 3 Sniping Rifle, the 303 Hotchkiss LMG, the Madsen 303 version LMG .........

[MikB]

And the P14 (303 version), No 4 Rifle, No 3 Sniping Rifle, the 303 Hotchkiss LMG, the Madsen 303 version LMG .........

...airborne Browning MG (multiple variants in eg. Spitfire, Lancaster etc.), No. 5 'Jungle' carbine, Martini-Enfield, Lee Speed sporting rifle... well that's me out, anybody got any more?

Regards,

MikB

[TonyE]

I could go on for ever...

Vickers Berthier LMG, Farquhar-Hill rifle, Beardmore Farquhar MG,Thorneycroft rifle, Bannerman rifle, Besal LMG, MG08 Converted, etc., etc.

Centurion - There was only one Pattern '14 rifle and that was only .303 inch. No such thing as the ".303 Version". The .276 was the Pattern '13 and the .30-06 was the Model of 1917. Also the No.3 sniping rifle was only the post 1926 nomenclature for the Pattern '14 with Pattern 1918 sight.

Regards

TonyE

[captainkirk]

wasn't the ross rifle also .303?

Were MG 08's ever converted to .303. A mate of mine has one in the original German calibre, and i am after one. But if one can be found in .303.... that's much much more interesting to my mind.

[TonyE]

Yes, the Ross was another .303 we have not listed yet.

Captured MG08s were indeed converted to .303 and re-issued. I was playing with one only yesterday.

I cannot remember the correct nomenclature but I will look up the List of Changes paragraph tomorrow and post it.

regards

TonyE

[Retlaw]

I could go on for ever...

Vickers Berthier LMG, Farquhar-Hill rifle, Beardmore Farquhar MG,Thorneycroft rifle, Bannerman rifle, Besal LMG, MG08 Converted, etc., etc.

Centurion - There was only one Pattern '14 rifle and that was .30 inch. No such thing as the ".303 Version". The .276 was the Pattern '13 and the .30-06 was the Model of 1917. Also the No.3 sniping rifle was only the post 1926 nomenclature for the Pattern '14 with Pattern 1918 sight.

Regards

TonyE

The P'14 was .303, the .30 was the P'17, longer breech and different stock markings, extractors were different, rimless cartridges. The P'13 in .276 was an experimental rifle.

I owned two P'14s at one time, in the 1950' you could buy through our rifle club, surplus P'14's

with a spare barrel for a fiver, one of them I had converted to .308 win at Stensby's in

Manchester.

All the tooling and samples for the P'13 .276 and the P'14 were sent to America, for them to produce the rifles, but did'nt get really going until 1917, by which time we had enough Smellies, including the ones coming in from Aiustralia and Canada.

Retlaw.

[centurion]

All the tooling and samples for the P'13 .276 and the P'14 were sent to America, for them to produce the rifles, but did'nt get really going until 1917, by which time we had enough Smellies, including the ones coming in from Aiustralia and Canada.

[/b]

But some were issued to units (including HG) in 1940/1 when there was a shortage of SMLEs

[Retlaw]

But some were issued to units (including HG) in 1940/1 when there was a shortage of SMLEs

The shortage in 1940/1 was the No4 rifle, some front line units were still using the previous pattern SMLE. Dads Army was issued with P'14's and some were issued with the P'17, the last was daft in my opinion because of the difference in calibres.

Retlaw.

[4thGordons]

The shortage in 1940/1 was the No4 rifle, .....

Retlaw.

Actually, as well as being rather off topic, I think this is also debatable.

Although the final decision to start producing the No4 was taken in October of 1939 (the basis for the decision was largely to do with mass producing the weapons, the No4 being designed from the outset with mass production in mind) No1s were the only rifles in production in '39/40 Purpose built facilities -(which did not exist in 1939) were to be built for the No4 - at Fazackerly and Maltby

Production of the No4 rifles did not begin until June 1941 at Fazackerly (by far the larger of the facilities). Maltby actually started production in late 1940 but always had relatively low output. (It is interesting to note however that more No4 rifles were produced outside the UK (in the US by Savage and in Canada at Longbranch)After a lot of looking for a long time - I have never seen a No4 dated pre 1941.

No1 rifles continued to be produced until late 1944 (B-Dispersal rifles) in the UK

and there was a massive refinishing (FTR) program of rifles produced earlier (and the so called Weedon Repair Standard WRS for P14s)

.

Lithgow and Ishapore never produced No4 rifles but produced many No1 rifles throughout WWII and (in the case of Ishapore) even later.

Chris

[4thGordons]

..... There was only one Pattern '14 rifle ......

But it did come in Mk1 and Mk1* versions

sorry - couldn't resist.

[TonyE]

Chris - An iron door has closed on our relationship!

Retlaw - thanks for pointing out my rather stupid typo, missing the "3" from the calibre of the P.'14! I have corrected it in my original post.

Incidentally, the US version was the Model of 1917 as I posted; it was never called the P.17, but I agree that this term has erroneously fallen into use.

With regard to the production of the Pattern '14, only drawings and samples were sent to the US. The tooling was all paid for by cash advances from the British government to Winchester and Remington. Your dates are also a bit out. Production had been scheduled to start in late 1915 but due to shortages of skilled workers, machine tools and arguments with British inspectors the first rifles were not accepted until February 1916. production had finished at Winchester by July 1917 and at the two Remington plants by August 1917.

Regards

TonyE

[TonyE]

Yes, the Ross was another .303 we have not listed yet.

Captured MG08s were indeed converted to .303 and re-issued. I was playing with one only yesterday.

I cannot remember the correct nomenclature but I will look up the List of Changes paragraph tomorrow and post it.

regards

TonyE

The LoC Paragraph nummber was 21,131 of 4th June 1917. This paragraph announced that no further Maxim guns would be manufactured or converted and that no further parts will be made.It also stated:

"This decision shall also apply to guns, Maxim "G" .303 inch Pattern "A", "B" and "C" respectively, (not previously announced in lists of changes) a small number of which are in use. These guns were converted from captured German guns, 7.9mm bore, and which fired German ammunition."

The three "A", "B" and "C" patterns referred to were the MG08, MG01 and MG08/15 repectively. They were converted by fitting .303 Maxim locks, barrels and extractors and the trunnions of the MG08 and MG01 were removed. They were also adapted to fit the standard Mark IV Vickers tripod. A brass plate with the British markings and calibre was affixed to the top cover.

regards

TonyE